Re: Discussion, part 1 of 3, general PBM

From: jefyoung@pawl.rpi.edu (Jeffrey Young)

Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1989 08:09:56 +0000

Steven Gabai asked me via private mail several questions on
how my game was running, and whether we could share ideas and stuff.
I did NOT expect him to post my reply, which was made private on
purpose, to the net.  Furthermore, when he asked if he could make
the conversation we were having public, I said "no, I don't think it
is such a good idea.." (myself thinking that the issue wasn't relevant)
Well, he did it anyway....which puts me on the spot.  I apologize for
this inconvienience.

>        Feel free to ask any other questions.  I'd like to keep this
>line of conversation open, as while I have run PBM games before, I
>haven't run anything on this large a scale before.

Frankly, I don't see WHY you felt this was relevant to broadcast to
the world.   I was rather annoyed at this.   I will, however, answer
that which you have asked me.

>        How do you handle bouncing mail?  With the number of messages
>being passed about, AND the fragility & instability of some nodes
>in the mail paths, I get about 20-100 messages per week that bounce
>on somebody or another's address.

Answer:The game isn't THAT big, and we triple check everyone's address
before setting up characters, so we know that the mailing address
works. Also, I requested the addresses in a form we KNEW would work
with our mailer.

>        How do you handle key participants that disappear for various
>reasons at inconvenient times?  We've had players, meta-players, etc.
>with vacations, too busy with work, system crashes, etc.

Answer:We had the Guardians VOLUNTEER, and only if they were willing to
do the work.  We do forssee some times of slowdown, like around break
and stuff, but since this game isn't running on a 'split-second'
basis, we won't be too inconvenienced.  Also consider that we aren't
running that big a game.

>Those people have a wierd sense of timing, which takes longer:
>  - hitting the 'n' key, or
>  - writing out a 'hate' letter

They feel the way you are running your game is being annoying, and they
want to let you know about it.   Simple.

>        btw: did you consider the possibility that you posted an
>article in triplicate?  Its size was only 76 lines (including header
>that's 91 lines, 4758 characters); however, your first few paragraphs

Yes.  That was because for a period of a week the readnews program was
on the blink, and it didn't give control back to the computer.  We had
no way of knowing whether the message was sent or not (three times I
tried sending it, and thrice the window crashed on my end -- but the
article got posted anyhow, which I did not find out until later.)
Of course, you know you can't delete an article once it is up....
We apologize to net readers who thought they were seeing triplicate,
but the situation was not under our control.

>Notice that I don't suggest to you guys, how to run your game.

ARE YOU OR ARE YOU NOT ASKING ME FOR HELP????!!???!   (Hmm.. I believe
there was a question above on how to avoid bouncing mail..)

>  - only public moves are posted
>    private conversations shouldn't be posted,

Hmm.. I seem to remember someone posting a simple
 "You got a problem with that?" as a MOVE...  I do not consider that
 a public move, but rather something that could have been handled as part
 of a bigger,collective move.

>    thought processes/motivations shouldn't be posted

Occasionally what people are thinking gets posted because the player's
moves are from a player point of view.

>        Since when has this become a moderated newsgroup?  I thought
>anyone was permitted to post articles of reasonable length and
>content.  Where 'reasonable' means appropriate to the readership

Well, obviously, since you are STILL getting complaints, people don't think your
players are being reasonable.

>levels.  May I remind you that you had the opportunity to vote in the
>recent news.group elections, but did not?  Roughly, it was about the

I did *NOT* get to vote, nor did many of our other players, because the
vote was held during the summer... I think I can speak for all the
Guardians when I say we would have voted YES.

>IMHO, this means that the games were not viewed as dissimilar enough
>to warrant a separate newsgroup.  Also, IMHO, they didn't mind using
>the 'n' key or the 'kill' switch to skip articles that weren't of
>interest to them.

Or maybe they didn't get a chance to vote.  (See above answer.)

>>        We post to the net for peoples enjoyment, not to annoy them.
>> perhaps, this belongs under alt.conspiracy :-]

I don't know about you and yours, but WE have been getting nothing but
compliments on the story we are unfolding...

>>        (A more colorful expression comes to mind at this point, but I
>>AM a Unicorn, after all...)  I am forced to admit that even I hit
>>"kill " when I saw the BAT Subject because it was getting annoying.

>You mean you had to hit the 'n' key twice in the last few
>days?  For this, I most humbly apologize.  I think I would not be
>stepping on Sara Shriner's pride if I apologize in her behalf as well.
>I assume that you've already complained to the following people as
>well:
> IND FILE LINES Newsgroup rec.games.pbm, 31 articles

>   8 1430   31 BAT still open for business (and pla SHRINER@osu-20.ircc.ohio-st
>   9 1446   68 Re: BAT still open for business (and gabai@paul.rutgers.edu
>  13 1435   11 Broad Axe Tavern                     cmoir@wpi.wpi.edu
>  14 1439   18 Re: Broad Axe Tavern                 raulmill@usc.edu
>  15 1436   10 Re: Broad Axe Tavern                 scorpion@titan.rice.edu
>  16 1442    8 Re: Broad Axe Tavern                 jdoty@eagle.wesleyan.edu
>  17 1437    7 Broad Axe Tavern                     rwilley@eagle.wesleyan.edu
>  18 1440   31 Broad Axe Tavern                     cfg@romeo.cs.duke.edu
>  20 1443   75 Re: Alternate Realities              jefyoung@pawl.rpi.edu
>  21 1445   75 Re: Alternate Realities              jefyoung@pawl.rpi.edu
>  23 1456  295 Alternate Realities                  jefyoung@pawl.rpi.edu
>  24 1444   76 Alternate Realities                  jefyoung@pawl.rpi.edu
>  26 1449    2 re:broard axe tavern                 rwilley@eagle.wesleyan.edu
>  27 1452   12 Re: re:broard axe tavern             jdoty@eagle.wesleyan.edu
>  29 1453   17 Broad Axe Tavern                     jdp@PacBell.COM
>  30 1455   32 Re: Broad Axe Tavern                 raulmill@usc.edu
>  31 1454   11 Re: Broad Axe Tavern                 gabai@paul.rutgers.edu

>Funny thing, I notice that your one posting #23
>is larger than all of our articles for the past week.

Yes, but look at the NUMBER of articles we posted (2 (actually 4, but that
was because our Rn was on the blink))  compared to the amount your people
posted (13)  You don't have to read the entire message of ours if you
don't want to, and once you have "n"d or "k'd" the one message, it is GONE.
Out of the way.  It didn't matter how long it was, because the system
forgets the whole message even though you didn't read it.  Only the people
who want to read the Description will keep reading!
The way you are running things, we run into the next person's move
and the next person's after that..and the next person's after that... and
as I have said before, that is the key thing that annoys people.

>on my end.  Certainly, this much information shouldn't be made public.:-)

Well, apparently since people are still complaining, it is still too much.

>        And what if somebody slips a 'mickee' on someone, or picks
>their pocket, or whispers a private comment; do you post this for all
>to read?

Hmm. I think the answer should be PRETTY obvious-- WE DON'T.  It is handled
via private E-mail for all involved, and unless it SHOULD be public, it
DOESN'T get posted.

>>        That is why you haven't seen very much of us-- we're running
>>the whole show behind the scenes... besides the fact that posting news
>>articles wastes lots of net money and if it isn't really worth
>>posting, don't do it.

>[some stuff about how low-cost your game is was deleted]

Well, there is this BIG warning message every time we put up a post
to the news, along the lines of

"This message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars to
send all over the civilized world.  Are you sure you want to do this?"

It's probably a bit of an exaggeration, but we are trying to be
cost-conscious here.  I think a single big post is a little less expensive
than a whole load of little ones.

>things across the planet, or in the far past.  So where, your system
>has lots of disconnected variety, we're developing an integrated
>system with both breadth & depth.  To each, their own I guess.

Precisely.  If you think your system is going to work, then more
power to you.  We're doing just fine, thanks.

>>        Why do we have Tech stuff?  It is because the characters
>>themselves have the background (and the Guardians are semi-omnipotent,
>>so they pick up a lot of junk) and they may actually need it.

I really don't think that was relevant to the discussion.

>have fun

I am, and have been.  Starting a flame war is NOT fun.  I don't need to
start one with you.  It's not worth it.  You can run your game any way
you want, and I shall run mine my way.  If it works for me... then
why change it, especially when it isn't bothering anyone?

Jeff Young
                                        -Taldin The Blue Unicorn-

References

Discussion, part 1 of 3, general PBM
gabai@paul.rutgers.edu (Steven Gabai)
Sat, 16 Sep 1989 07:54:04 +0000