Re: SPIRAL ARM : the facts.

From: havok@st1.vuw.ac.nz

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1991 08:01:49 +0000

In article <1991Sep11.220149.23804@claven.cambridge.ibm.com>, owens@claven.cambridge.ibm.com (David Owens) writes:
I (Protector) would like to add my two cents (how about 2000 Drds?) to the
debate about strategy in Spiral Arm.

**Protector has a lot to say, but I HAVOK! have a few words to say also.**

>>> Here are the rules I try to play by...
>>>
>>>   1.  Don't build fleet at the start of the game... invest, invest, invest.
>>>       (see 4,5,6,7)
>>Invest in UK? But how do you maintain battle losses and how do you take
>>worlds(industrialized) from other players without dreadnoughts?
>
> I said "at the start of the game".  While you expand into all the unoccupied
> stars near you... before you need to fight.  I'm talking about before you need
> to "take worlds from other players".  So there will be no "battle losses" to
> maintain and there are few worlds worth taking yet...

Havok is an aggressive player, one of his goals is to have 'liberated' someone's
industry by turn 10, if you dont build fleet at the start of the game and he (or
someone of an equally antisocial approach) attacks you on turn 6, your 14 star
empire (we will generously assume that it is slightly higher than average) will
be gone by turn 9 as you will lose at least 4 stars a turn.  We do agree that
you should expand into the empty spaces available or into non players (if they
are available), but not building fleet for the first five turns is dangerous.

**Doesn't Protector say the nicest things about me! - HAVOK!**

#Points 3 and 4 in summary: buy tech to trade with extra allies, as this gives
#you free money and the possibility of gaining free tech levels.  Whereas Havok
#says that the chance of gaining extra tech is so small that it is not worth
#gambling your fleet development for.

I have to agree with Havok, a free Tech is nice but not worth retarding your
development for.  Generally it has been my experience that those who buy Tech
early can not find a second ally worth allying with.  You do have to get the
Tech eventually but you could cripple yourself if you do it too early.  It is
turn 36 and I have Tech 25, I am building (from my income of 40000K+) 8000 UK
(it costs 6000 to go up Tech levels after 24).  A free Tech is worth 500 UK,
now I was traded Tech 2, but it didn't make a big difference at the time, and it
matters not at all now.  If everyone who I was attacking suddenly got boosted
seven techs through trading it would not even slow me down, and you cant get
past Tech 7 by trading anyhow.

**Of course Protector agrees with me, I'm right nearly always! - HAVOK!**

>>>   5.  Don't burn pop, build up the ea to 50 right away.
>>WRONG! On the colonies that can build POP eg Bio=1 POP=20 you get a 2 POP
>>increase! This doesn't mean much, but it adds up after a while. I think
>>you mean 50 EA on a 1 POP colony, otherwise you are missing out on a lot
>>of free POP growth.
>
> I think you misunderstood...  I meant don't let 10 pop slowly die waiting
> for EA to come up to 50.  Buy the EA and get those pop producing as soon as
> you can.  5 pop dead early in the game could mean a big difference 20
> generations later...  I want to MAXIMIZE pop growth.

The point that Havok is trying to make is that instead of increasing the EA to
50, (at which point it stabilises) you should take the EA to 100 and start the
pop growing as soon as possible.  Yes taking the EA to 50 to prevent pop from
dying is a good idea, but it is a better idea to get it to 100 and get the
FREE population increase.

**POP is life and money. Money is ships. Ships is War. War is Fun! - HAVOK!**

>>>   7.  Avoid battles until at least turn 10 (take advantage of the 20% $ bonus)
>>WHY? Don't you want the IND of the other players! Doesn't this presume that
>>your neighbours are doing nothing on your borders eg attacking you!
>
> This early in the game you will be wrecking more ships than you can make up
> for in captured IND.
>
> With a little diplomacy you usually can avoid having neighbours attack you
> early on.  And... early in the game nobody is strong enough to finish another
> player off.  All two players will accomplish by fighting early in the game
> is to make them both weak.  Until you are strong enough to take on the
> pop fire and Mon of a home-world... avoid fighting anyone.
>
> Yes I "want the IND of the other players"... but I want it at the minimum
> price to me.

This is a very important issue that all players have to deal with.  One
important aspect is that if you and your ally wipe out a number of other players
you dont seem to make large gains in industry as compared to others who dont
conquer others but who do build maximum industry, you may have say 1100 ind when
they have 800.  Of course this means that you are building at least 6 more DRDs
every turn.  Intellectually this doesnt seem to be a big difference, but
remember that this is nearly a 40% increase!  Yes it does cost a lot to take
someones homeworld, but it will have paid for itself before the PCR drops to
zero, everything after that is pure profit.

**Kill your neighbours as this is good and fun for you! See above - HAVOK!**

>>>   8.  Make sure you have tech 4 before you start fighting.
>>WHY? You have spent some 2000 UK or 4000 K on building tech, where are your
>>ships, dreadnoughts, fleet? What do you have to defend yourself with?
>>If you do 7. Then you haven't expanded very far and so your empire is
>>very small and you can be "rolled over" in next to no time!
>
> If you have redesigned your ships and your enemy hasn't... he better have
> at least twice as many ships.  If he has been "expanding" his empire since
> early in the game, many of his ships will be space dust already - and all
> he'll have to show for it is a few more mostly barren rocks in space.  When
> it's time to fight... THEN build a fleet.  (you should have better production
> than if you had built a big fleet earlier.)

The values for tech 1 ships can be found by extrapolation:
      Points available for defence or offence (hits or shots, with one shot
costing 3 points, a hit costing one point.  There are minimum values for hits
       Tech1      Tech4  %increase
DRD    216        252    16.66
BAT    125        145    16
CRS    52         60     15.38
DES    26         30     15.38
SCT    6          7      16.66
MON    510        570    11.76
for an average increase of 16%, add the bonus for Tech and its about 20%.
Boosting defence makes for longer battles (big deal) and also reduces damage
from pop fire (what a good idea).  Sometimes when I take over fully developed
colonies I dont lose anything to pop fire!  I dont lose more than one DRD to pf
the rest of the time.  The 'gear ratio' of fleets has a big effect on battles
also.  However you must consider the cost of the redesign to see whether it is
cost effective.

**Gurr! Nasty POP fire! Protector speaks great truth - HAVOK!**

>>>  10.  Avoid fighting with portions of your fleet.  It's better to lose a planet
>>>       without a fight and then take it back with your entire fleet.
>>But how many planets can you afford to lose, especially when they now border
>>your homeworld! MBFs (Main Battle Fleets) are good, but use caution.
>
> It's true... if you are getting battered from all sides this strategy is hard.
> The idea is not to get into this position!  If you are losing multiple worlds
> bordering your homeworld... whatever strategy you used has already failed.

Dont put small fleets on your border stars to stop a major invasion, the small
fleets will just die and the other guy wont even be scratched.  This is assuming
that he attacks you with one MBF.  A example may clarify this, a couple of my
friends attacked across a large border with lots of small fleets.  After they
missed various turns and had their small fleets decimated by pf the attack
ground to a halt.  They had no fleet and were being attacked by 6+ players (the
two they attacked were part of the Ork federation from Auckland and had called
for help from their buddies.  Things looked grim!  But following my advice they
concentrated their fleet to fight the incoming MBFs.  Sure they lost some of
their gains, but it gave them time to rebuild and they destroyed two players
fleets!  I destroyed two of the Orks and we are rolling over the rest.  Sure
let a couple of worlds get taken like David suggests, but they were high PCR and
the Orks lost a vast amount of fleet elsewhere.

**Attack! Attack! Attack! What a big turnsheet I will have! JOY! - HAVOK!**

>>>  12.  Try to ally with someone who has played many times.  (there are always
>>>       several in a game)
>>I know several people that fit your description, but I would sooner shot
>>myself in the foot before allying with them! You should say ally with
>>competent players...not some wally who's played 8 times and died 8 times.
>
> I'm afraid Graaf Simulations doesn't supply you with a win-loss record of
> everyone in the game.  You don't even get names.  Maybe the people you play
> with do?  My advice is to talk to the people you bump into, make contacts,
> make the best decision you can about who to ally with.  Experience is a
> BIG plus.

The point is to talk with people and find out from them who has played and done
well.  Some players blow their own trumpet better than others (Protector and
Havok both take a bow, when you have more special abilities than all the other
players in the game you rate an entire brass section to yourself!!).  I however
do tend to take risks by allying with new players.  We do not get a list of
wins and losses, but as Havok says keep your ear to the ground.
There are some people who just dont learn from their mistakes, naturally they
dont tend to do as well as those who only make a mistake once.  Natural ability
counts for a lot however.

**Some "Bunnies" take longer to learn things, guess they have THICK heads**
 **This is a good thing as they are easy prey for ME! Free IND for me - HAVOK!**

It can be really hard to get anywhere in your first game, especially if noone
will tell you what to do.

>>>  13.  Once you have filled your initial planets choose weakest player on
>>>       your borders (preferably a non-player or someone with no allies or very
>>>       low tech) and attack with everything you have.
>>Define your idea of weakest player? For me it's someone who has no Fleet, no
>>Dreadnoughts and a weak (low POP) economy. Hmmmm.....sounds like you!
> Why do you think I would have a low POP?  My advice is not to waste even a
> single POP or IND if you can help it  (even at the cost of a large fleet early
> in the game.)  Why do you think I would have no Dreads?  I now have a strong
> production system, huge amounts of cash, and all my money has been spent to
> make more money.  I can now build a huge fleet quickly and rebuild fleet
> faster than someone who has not invested as I have!

There is no way that you can rebuild fleet faster than someone who has taken
extra industry Dave, unless you keep a reserve of UK to get a 20% bonus from,
but this means that you are not fighting.  If you are going to spend a long time
investing in tech you might as well go all the way (ie min Tech 25) - see my
comments on UK building.  The special abilities are the only thing that can let
you catch up with an aggresive player.  Remember that you may have 'a strong
production system' but Havoks economy will be twice as big as yours!

**IND is good for economy! Strong economy means lots of K! Lots of K means**
 **lots of ships! Lots of ships mean lots of attacks! More IND for me! HAVOK!**

> There is no point in bumping heads with someone, grinding up ships for an
> extended period of time.
> Here's how my current game has gone...
>
> turns 1-5:   built no extra fleet... invest, invest, invest.
> turns 5-15:  made friends with neigbors as best I could... made non-aggression
> 	     pacts... neighbors went off to fight elswhere... invest, invest.
> 	     Bought tech 2.
> turns 15-20: I had 6500 UK making 20% yearly...  I bought tech 3,4 and 5 in
> 	     one shot and started building a fleet.
> turns 20-25: With better production, bigger fleet, higher tech, redesigned
> 	     ships, larger pop... I quickly swallowed the non-player to my
> 	     south (taking VERY little dammage to my fleet - no need to
> 	     rebuild).
> turns 25-    With better production, bigger fleet, higher tech, redesigned
> 	     ships, larger pop... I have swallowed 3/4 of the guy who had
> 	     been slowly advancing against the non-player since early in the
> 	     game.  (again - taking very little dammage)
>
> The bottom line is "war is costly".  The more the odds are in your favor, the
> less costly it is.  It's not worth taking a few crappy planets from some guy
> if it costs you half your fleet.
> Of course if someone had insisted on fighting in the first 20 turns... I would
> have been forced to fight back.  We both would have wasted money on ships that
> ground each other up, and we both would have been weaker.
> Dave Owens    IBM Technical Computing Systems, Cambridge, MA

Hmm..
On turn 7 I stopped building ships and started building UK.  My current ally
goes off to attack someone he didnt like.  I neutralise the guys ally through
effective diplomacy.
On turn 8 My border was violated for the last time by the Orks (I kicked up an
enormous fuss so they left me alone).
On turn 11 My ally decides to leave the game as he has wasted himself.
On turn 13 My four DRDs and all but six of my BATs are destroyed taking over his
stars (Note that I do not replace these losses until turn 25).  I ally with
another UK builder, however he is building ships as well as fleet and so he
never reaches the heights and glory that I acheive.  I have nineteen stars.
On turn 25 I have about 30000 UK and NO fleet.  I start buying tech and ships
instead of UK.  I have about ten neighbours.
On turn 28 I spend the rest of my UK getting tech 25, I begin covert action
against the Orks.  Wow lots of special abilities!
On turn 36 I have 50 stars I am using all my ASMs and my DSM, I am making lots
of K every turn, my pop has finally reached 100, I have not been beaten in
battle except for tiny fleets of 2 DRDs which are my vanguard.  I have 200 DRDs,
I attacked the guy with the largest fleet, he now has the seventh largest fleet.
I am reeally BORED!  There can only be so many enemies that fall before you
begin to yawn at the prospect of another one.  I hope the game ends soon.

**I could never last that long! Protector has got what he wanted, but it **
 **is boring! Give me lots of turns of WAR! Death to the Enemy eg you! HAVOK!**

Remember: Intelligence is a tool to achieve a goal, but goals are not always
chosen intelligently. - Larry Niven in (of course) Protector.

**HAVOK! What Protector says is true, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!**
**At the end of day can you back your words? Cause there are people out there**
**who can call your bluff! C'mon punk make my day! Remeber that Diplomacy is **
**a nine-letter word and words won't stop my DRDs from visiting you and your **
**Homeworld. Maybe I won't get far in the game, but I'll die trying! - HAVOK!**

This piece of shameless self appreciation was produced first by Protector with
supplementary notes added by Havok afterwards.  I'm glad he's on my side!

References

SPIRAL ARM from AustWiz!
havok@st1.vuw.ac.nz
Thu, 05 Sep 1991 02:58:46 +0000
Re: SPIRAL ARM from AustWiz!
owens@claven.cambridge.ibm.com (David Owens)
Fri, 06 Sep 1991 21:49:32 +0000
Re: SPIRAL ARM from AustWiz!
havok@st1.vuw.ac.nz
Mon, 09 Sep 1991 04:36:34 +0000
Re: SPIRAL ARM from AustWiz!
owens@claven.cambridge.ibm.com (David Owens)
Wed, 11 Sep 1991 22:01:49 +0000

Referenced By

SPIRAL ARM from AustWiz!
havok@st1.vuw.ac.nz
Thu, 05 Sep 1991 02:58:46 +0000
Re: SPIRAL ARM from AustWiz!
owens@claven.cambridge.ibm.com (David Owens)
Fri, 06 Sep 1991 21:49:32 +0000
Re: SPIRAL ARM from AustWiz!
havok@st1.vuw.ac.nz
Mon, 09 Sep 1991 04:36:34 +0000
Re: SPIRAL ARM from AustWiz!
owens@claven.cambridge.ibm.com (David Owens)
Wed, 11 Sep 1991 22:01:49 +0000