Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)

From: js138@cus.cam.ac.uk (John Sloan)

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 09:37:56 +0000

In article <troyer.741296245@cgl.ucsf.edu>, troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu (John M. Troyer) writes:
|> rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace) writes:
|> >Alright then, how about 200 peasants and 10 swordsmen?  The peasants
|> >will only win if the first 30 of them are prepared to die.
|>
|> To everybody arguing that the player's intuition should be the guide:
|> Remember, we're not talking about intuition about how the world works, we're
|> talking about intuition about how the implementor/GM's mind works.
|> (Someone has already brought this up.)
|>
|> I don't think the results of this battle are clear cut.
|>
|> Are some sort of morale rules implemented? Then the peasants might run away.
|> In Atlantis, this means the losing side dies.
|> In another game, they might all run away to some place else.
|> If there are no morale rules, maybe all the peasants die.
|> Maybe all the swordsmen die. Maybe they run away. Maybe their morale breaks and
|> 	they die.
|> Maybe in this world, peasants are scared, helpless rabbits (or perhaps they
|> 	just have no weapons) and they all die; no swordsmen die.
|> Maybe in this world, peasants grab up scythes and clubs, and all of the
|> 	swordsmen will die (If the peasant's morale doesn't break first.
|> 	If there are morale rules. If the swordsmen's morale doesn't break
|> 	first and they all run away. If there are flight from combat rules.)
|>
|> It all depends on how the GM sees the world. It all depends on what is
|> included in the _simulation_ of the world.
|>
|> Possible responses:
|> 1. This is why you need formulae. Otherwise people won't know which reality
|> 	they are working in. (I would normally use the terms 'cinematic' vs.
|> 	'realistic', but here I am arguing that 'realism' is subjective.)
|>
|> 2. This is why you DON'T need formulae.  Sure, the documentation should give
|> 	some indication, but this is what the fun of the game is. Finding out
|> 	what _does_ happen in the 200 vs 10 scenario.

I think 1. is a reasonable response to this problem.  I think 2. isn't.  Now this
may sound strange from someone who has been arguing _against_ formulae, but the
way to remove formulae is _not_ method 2.

The rules should make it clear that 10 swordsmen against 200 peasants is
approximately a win, a loss or a draw, and explain the more important factors
which might move the result one way or another.  Morale, weather, loyalty,
training, all that sort of thing.  The average person looking at the rules should
be able to work out whether he expects them to win heavily or lose heavily
without knowing that if he wins he will kill 83 peasants and lose 3 swordsmen.
He should know that he will inflict casualties at approx a 25 to 1 rate, and that
the peasants are unlikely to stand to the last man.  That sort of thing.

Of course you're always going to lose out when that one peasant happens to be
Bruce Lee in disguise.

References

Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 22:47:07 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu (John M. Troyer)
Mon, 28 Jun 1993 19:37:25 +0000
PBM design: give away the formulas?
skrenta@rt.com (Rich Skrenta)
Sat, 19 Jun 1993 18:12:59 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rob@ccc.govt.nz (Rob McNeur)
Mon, 21 Jun 1993 12:00:33 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
srt@aero.org (Scott 'Dr. Pain' Turner)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 22:50:14 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
srt@aero.org (Scott 'Dr. Pain' Turner)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 16:59:59 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
ulim@coli.uni-sb.de (Ulrich Mayring)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 10:41:26 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 21:26:47 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 10:52:00 +0000