Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)

From: troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu (John M. Troyer)

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1993 19:37:25 +0000

rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace) writes:
>Alright then, how about 200 peasants and 10 swordsmen?  The peasants
>will only win if the first 30 of them are prepared to die.

To everybody arguing that the player's intuition should be the guide:
Remember, we're not talking about intuition about how the world works, we're
talking about intuition about how the implementor/GM's mind works.
(Someone has already brought this up.)

I don't think the results of this battle are clear cut.

Are some sort of morale rules implemented? Then the peasants might run away.
In Atlantis, this means the losing side dies.
In another game, they might all run away to some place else.
If there are no morale rules, maybe all the peasants die.
Maybe all the swordsmen die. Maybe they run away. Maybe their morale breaks and
	they die.
Maybe in this world, peasants are scared, helpless rabbits (or perhaps they
	just have no weapons) and they all die; no swordsmen die.
Maybe in this world, peasants grab up scythes and clubs, and all of the
	swordsmen will die (If the peasant's morale doesn't break first.
	If there are morale rules. If the swordsmen's morale doesn't break
	first and they all run away. If there are flight from combat rules.)

It all depends on how the GM sees the world. It all depends on what is
included in the _simulation_ of the world.

Possible responses:
1. This is why you need formulae. Otherwise people won't know which reality
	they are working in. (I would normally use the terms 'cinematic' vs.
	'realistic', but here I am arguing that 'realism' is subjective.)

2. This is why you DON'T need formulae.  Sure, the documentation should give
	some indication, but this is what the fun of the game is. Finding out
	what _does_ happen in the 200 vs 10 scenario.

(Both of these are legitimate responses. Which is why this argument can't be
 resolved.)

Not a legitimate response:
Well, if 10 men can beat 200 peasants, the rules are broken.

No, but the referee's 'intuitive' interpretation of reality doesn't quite
match your 'intuitive' interpretation of reality.

(Thus Rich Skrenta's problem of hidden factors causing players frustration
when these two views of reality didn't agree. Perhaps each group of peasants
has different morale or skill levels that the documentation never talked
about. Do you scream "Bug!" when 1 peasant kills your 10 swordsmen?)

Copout conclusion: The answer is, as of course it always is, "It all depends."

References

Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
srt@aero.org (Scott 'Dr. Pain' Turner)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 22:50:14 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 10:52:00 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
srt@aero.org (Scott 'Dr. Pain' Turner)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 16:59:59 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 22:47:07 +0000
PBM design: give away the formulas?
skrenta@rt.com (Rich Skrenta)
Sat, 19 Jun 1993 18:12:59 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rob@ccc.govt.nz (Rob McNeur)
Mon, 21 Jun 1993 12:00:33 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
ulim@coli.uni-sb.de (Ulrich Mayring)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 10:41:26 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 21:26:47 +0000

Referenced By

Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
srt@aero.org (Scott 'Dr. Pain' Turner)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 22:50:14 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 10:52:00 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
srt@aero.org (Scott 'Dr. Pain' Turner)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 16:59:59 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 22:47:07 +0000
PBM design: give away the formulas?
skrenta@rt.com (Rich Skrenta)
Sat, 19 Jun 1993 18:12:59 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rob@ccc.govt.nz (Rob McNeur)
Mon, 21 Jun 1993 12:00:33 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
ulim@coli.uni-sb.de (Ulrich Mayring)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 10:41:26 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 21:26:47 +0000