Re: PBM design and formulae - a fresh start

From: rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1993 11:32:44 +0000

gym@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Graham Matthews) writes:

>gym@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Graham Matthews) writes:
>rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace) writes:
>> (What if you could write a game that was based on the computer having a
>> genuine understanding of the world?  Unfortunately this seems to be an
>> AI-complete problem.  :-( )

>I think you are really misrepresenting the capabilities that a well designed
>game could have. To illustrate this point lets look ak industrial simulations.
>Now people do simulations of things like air flow over wings and are confident
>enough in the results of the simulations to use these results to design real
>aircraft. This suggests that the simulation is doing a damn good job of
>representing reality. Now if this type of technology were applied to games
>what would happen?

>Now before you say "ah yes but you need a super-computer for wing simulations"
>I would like to point out that :-

>a) games are much much simpler than wing simulations

No.  The subject matter of any game which refers to the real world is
*almost infinitely more complex* than a wing simulation.  Galaxy for
example represents the economies of many planets occupied by many
different intelligent species and many different biospheres as well as
the strategy and tactics of interstellar war between differently
designed fleets at different levels of technology.  By contrast, all
attempts to create a simulation of the economy of this one planet, in
order to predict future economic trends, have been dismal failures.
This is because an economy is so much more complex than anything that
can be accurately simulated.  Galaxy manages to represent all that in
only 4000 lines of code because it makes semi-arbitrary decisions using
fixed formulas, rather than hopelessly trying to accurately simulate
everything.

(And BTW, many Galaxy players do quite a bit of role playing, despite -
or because of - the fact that these formulas are detailed in the rules
and you don't have to find them out by trial and error or rummaging
through the source code.)

>If formulas published Joe Average has 0 usable knowledge, maths person 100 %.

If "Joe Average" is so staggeringly stupid he can't understand the
concepts of percentage or ratio (which concepts suffice to understand
most formulas in most games), he shouldn't be playing at all.  What are
you going to argue next, that a printed rulebook should not be provided
because it puts at a disadvantage people who can't read???

>gym@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Graham Matthews) writes:
>>So if we are to write a good simulation of tennis we should not
>> >make it equation based, or rather we might have the ball obey
>> >equations, but the interface with the human would not be through
>> >equations. We would not ask tell the player - oh the ball is coming
>> >at you with the following parameters ... what parameters would you
>> >like to reply with. What we would do instead is say have a small
>> >picture of the racquet showing its tilt etc (no figures just the
>> >picture). Through practice the players would get to know how to
>> >position the picture to hit certain shots.
>rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace) writes:
>> Ah, but: For a player to use intuition, requires that the information
>> come in the same form it would in real life, and the output be in the
>> same form, i.e. it would have to be a VR simulator.  If you can't have
>> that, and all you get is some numbers on a piece of paper, then the best
>> way to approach such a game is to attempt to derive the formulas that
>> the computer is using.

>Ever heard of graphics? Output for the tennis game is in terms of pictures
>of the court, ball, players, racquet. Using this information a player can
>develop an intuition for the game. You don't need VR - that is an extreme
>position! Surely you have played a computer tennis or driving game. You
>develop intution quite rapidly without any VR surrounds.

Sorry, pictures aren't going to cut it, because a great deal of
information comes from things like observing the *movement* of the ball,
getting its 3D position using *stereoscopic* vision, feeling how much
wind there is, and things like that.

I have indeed played computer tennis and driving games.  I used to clock
up zillions of points on Pole Position and I completed all the missions
on F-18 Interceptor back on the Amiga.  *Yet I don't know how to drive a
car, I couldn't hit a tennis ball to save my life, and I doubt very much
if my flying hours on F-18 Interceptor qualify me as a fighter pilot!*
Kind of demolishes the idea that games have anything to do with reality,
other than as a polite fiction for which players suspend their
disbelief.

--
"To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem"
Russell Wallace, Trinity College, Dublin
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie

References

Re: PBM design and formulae - a summary
gym@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Graham Matthews)
Wed, 30 Jun 1993 10:33:28 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a summary
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)
Wed, 30 Jun 1993 23:25:42 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a fresh start
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)
Fri, 02 Jul 1993 14:54:28 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a fresh start
gym@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Graham Matthews)
Fri, 02 Jul 1993 17:52:40 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a summary
desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins)
Mon, 28 Jun 1993 20:30:42 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a summary
gym@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Graham Matthews)
Tue, 29 Jun 1993 11:55:07 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a summary
desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins)
Tue, 29 Jun 1993 21:24:09 +0000
PBM design and formulae - a summary
rob@ccc.govt.nz (Rob McNeur)
Mon, 28 Jun 1993 09:53:02 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a summary
gym@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Graham Matthews)
Thu, 01 Jul 1993 11:40:27 +0000

Referenced By

Re: PBM design and formulae - a summary
gym@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Graham Matthews)
Wed, 30 Jun 1993 10:33:28 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a summary
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)
Wed, 30 Jun 1993 23:25:42 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a fresh start
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)
Fri, 02 Jul 1993 14:54:28 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a fresh start
gym@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Graham Matthews)
Fri, 02 Jul 1993 17:52:40 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a summary
desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins)
Mon, 28 Jun 1993 20:30:42 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a summary
gym@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Graham Matthews)
Tue, 29 Jun 1993 11:55:07 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a summary
desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins)
Tue, 29 Jun 1993 21:24:09 +0000
PBM design and formulae - a summary
rob@ccc.govt.nz (Rob McNeur)
Mon, 28 Jun 1993 09:53:02 +0000
Re: PBM design and formulae - a summary
gym@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Graham Matthews)
Thu, 01 Jul 1993 11:40:27 +0000