Re: DM: Two Roll-Ups

From: hitz@cuhhca.hhmi.columbia.edu (Benjamin Hitz)

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 00:43:58 +0000

In article <CE138M.3s6@ucdavis.edu> ez007195@yogi.ucdavis.edu (Yeon Choi)
writes:
>:In article <2871lp$fbs@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
hitz@cuhhca.hhmi.columbia.edu (Benjamin Hitz) writes:
Well it doesn't really get interesting to about here.
(BTW, this is me replying to Trump replying to me replying to Trump
replying to someone with a rollup)

>:>Little Damage does suck.  But I might consider leaving the ST at 13,
and
>:>bumping the WL to 15.
>:
>:Back when I was in Kati-Tei, a friend of mine read an article on
plungers.
>:It stated, point blank, that 13 ST SZ 4 *guaranteed* normal damage (ob-
>:viously, in retrospect, it wasn't written about characters in general
but
>:with one particular character in mind).  So my friend my his ST 13 SZ 4
>:Plunger and guess what?  It got little damage.  Damage ratings are
greatly
>:underrated, in my opinion, and any character that starts with little
>:damage (outside of a pure sponge TP) is asking for a horrendous loss
record.

Hee Hee.  Guarenteed, huh.  I've never even bothered to try to run a
little damage character.  Either train to normal, or give up.  A TP would
work, but I try to aviod them.  I have to admit, I'd be hard pressed to
guess the odds of a 13-4 (or a 15-4) for that matter.  They're not exactly
common.  I've seen AB's that got away with little damage (got kills,
even... bare handed even!!!), but that's about it...
I'm happy with normal damage, but maybe that's why I have trouble breaking
500

>:
>:True, a character can train ST, but why waste the time?  Also, if you
get
>:little damage with a 15 ST SZ 4 character, the odds are better for you
to
>:raise ST just once and get normal damage.
>:
>:It's all a crap shoot, I guess.  I actually made a ST 11 SZ 4 striker,
who
>:got little damage on his roll-up.  I trained his ST to 12 and got normal
>:damage.  Unfortunately, it seems that damage rating is affected by the
>:amount of mass you put behind the blow.  Scimitar and Broadsword attacks
>:were bouncing off my opponents Ring and Chain mail like the sword was
made
>:of rubber.

That's really true of LU weapons.  The lunger below has pinged off ARM
with a LO.  Slashing weapons (well, little ones: HA, SC, BS) only do
_huge_ amounts of damage if you crit, i've found.  (But that's with normal
damage...)
>:
>:>>:Stat by stat:
>:>>:
>:>>:ST 15:  As I said before, you need a good ST in order to avoid little
>:>>:	damage hell.  It also helps with encumbrance (should you choose
>:>>:	to weear any armor.  I would go ALE/L: the best protection nto
>:>>:	weight ratio, although it still doesn't give a lot of help).
>:>
>:>You do get an attack and parry at 15, and it does give you the BA.  But
>:>with that size, I would be _real_ suprised if you ever got out of
Normal.
>:
>:I haven't looked at my tables lately, but I think it's possible for even
>:a SZ 3 character to get good damage.  Of course, I've only ever had 1 SZ
3,

I didn't say it was impossible, I just said I'd be suprised...

>:so I can't say for sure.  The attack and parry don't mean much, but the
>:use of the BA sure does.  Just a question, though, doesn't the BA
require
>:a 7 SZ to use?

I dunno.  I'll use a weapon if I'm within 3 points (total, I guess) of
stats.  Like LO with 10 ST, 11 DF.  Or LS with 9 ST, 8 SZ.  Or BA with 15
ST 4 SZ.  I think I saw one chart that put it at 3, I always thought that
was wierd...
>:
>:>>:CN  5:  A 5 CN isn't very different from an 11 CN, and those points
can
>:>>:	go to more useful stats that give skills useful inthe Champs
>:>>:	class, should you make it that far.
>:>
>:>I'm not sure about this.  It's probably true for slashers, who have
>:>basically zero defensive ability.  That 11 CN _might_ give you a chance
to
>:>riposte.  But I doubt it would make the difference in even 1/15-20
fights.
>:>11 CN might keep you alive longer, but I still wouldn't add points to
it.

>:
>:If you're getting hit, you're not fighting your slasher correctly.

Or I'm getting beaten to the punch.  (see: ST).  That's why I said it
wouldn't matter much (maybe 1/20 fights)

>:extra riposte and defense skills are going to give you a chance to
riposte,
>:*not* the extra damage taking.  I've noticed that characters who have
great
>:initiative, also seem to have anti-initiative: once somebody starts
pounding
>:on them, they just get slashed into ground beef.

I'd be happy with lots of defense skills.  Just can't seem to learn
them... (I have a slasher in 105 with ~70 skills, just learned defense
skills #2 and #3)

>:
>:>>:SZ  4:  Nice size, but for a character like this hardly ideal.  I'd
>:>>:	prefer to switch SZ and SP myself, as strange as that sounds.
>:>
>:>Yeah, but the speed will help the Slasher.  If you put 6 points of SP
into
>:>WL...  (well, you'd have a good lunger).  I have a 13-5-4-17-17-13-15
LU.
>:>Great Skills!  Doesn't hit too hard (normal damage), doesn't have the
>:>greatest endurance.  10-6, 2 Masters and 2 Adexs.

>:
>:10-6?  Do you mean 14-6 when he goes to AD?  Maybe, but if you've got a
>:decent manager in your arena this guy isn't going to get to be DM for
long

Huh?  He's not duelmaster, he's like a C. Adept!!!  (Still in regular).

>:Trust me, I know, this guy is going to be absolute meat for any sponge
TP

Yes.  Fortunately, there aren't too many of those in that arena (shock!
Suprise!)  He could get scummed by a ST...  But he started 90 attack, 85
init, 80 defense, 80 riposte...  No complaints.

>:who comes along.  Visions of Wailin' Van Halen dance in my head.
>:
>:>>:	I've heard that some people like to give their slashers a lot
>:>>:	of WL, but my best ones (the few, the proud, the survivors) have
>:>>:	all had WL's in the 11-13 range.
>:>
>:>15 is allegedly less of a breakpoint than 13.  Data others have
collected
>:>indicate you get _no_ skills at 13, but 3 or 4 at 15.  The trade off
here
>:>is WL and ST.  Higher WL, you last longer; higher ST, you hit harder.
>:>_Assuming_ that this approximatly cancels, I would go for the WL
because
>:>you can train stats with it.  This guy has good enough stats to think
>:>about things after he/she maxes out in skills.  (Also, it will be
easier
>:>to train the ST to 14 with a 15 WL... But there are 2 skills at 15 ST
you
>:>will lose if you train to it before you max out.)  I don't think that
with
>:>a 15/16 ST this guy will do good damage, and I suspect he'll do normal
>:>with 13.
>:
>:I don't worry much about the difference between 118 skills and 120
skills
>:if it means things like damage ratings will suffer.  Of course, I've
never
>:been a manager who has worried about characters maxing out (I've always
>:abandoned my characters before that dread event happened, although with
this
>:new job I've gotten maybe I'll start up White Lion and Wailin' Van Halen
>:and see what it's like to max out on skills).

I have 1 warrior with 118 skills.  I've never lost a skill to stat
training on a 'keepable' warrior.  There's no real reason for it, I guess
it's just sort of a religion.  You Must Advance Your Warriors To Their
Maximum Potential!!!  For me, the 2 skills would depend on the damage
rating involved.  Little-Normal, in a second.  (Otherwise he's
useless...), Great to Tremendous?  Normal to Good?  Proably not, although
it's usually an attack and parry.  Maybe if I already had 20 attack
skills.  Another problem is that you aren't guarenteed the damage
increase, but you are the skill loss...

>:
>:>>:>This is what I think would be the best design
>:>>:>
>:>>:>     13-5-4-21(+3)-15(+5)-11-15(+6) Striker
>:>
>:>This is too good a roll-up to waste on a ST (IMHO).  On the other hand,
if
>:>he does enough damage (and gets his learns), he'll probably TV (around
>:>Adepts???), and has a shot a TC'ing.  Slasher don't TV as much, but
>:>they're better in AD/Primus.
>:
>:Agreed.  I'm not sure why strikers don't do well, maybe it's their poor
>:attack bonus, but they sure seem to suck.  To misquote Biff
Frothingslosh,

Only decent bonuses they get are decis.  And any good defense will take
that out.  There're good in basic when they have Masters in attack, decis,
and init, and only about 12 fights (usually requires a 21 WT and a bit of
luck).  But then they max out at 140 Attack, and their other ratings
aren't enough to compensate (TP's get a slightly worse attack, but have
good Parry, defense, and riposte)

>:"Anything that will make a good striker, will make a better something
>:else."

Well, except maybe a Parry-Strike.  Slow Strikers, with Parry!!
>:>Don't forget to give your TP's weapons!!!  At least make them try to
>:>swing!!!  The advantage of a 7 ST over a 5 is that you can freely train
to
>:>14 without loosing a skill (There are skills at 7 ST -- 1 attack, 1
Parry)
>:
>:7 strength raises?  In regular AD?  What arenas have you been in and
>:how are you doing there?  Not only would you lose 7-14 skills from
attrition

That was a joke.  Subtle, wasn't it.  OK, you can train to 9.

>:(assuming you made every single raise the first time you tried it), but
>:why bother unless it becomes a real problem?  You have become a true
>:number cruncher!
>:
>:Also, not to rain on your number parade, but there is *significant*
evidence
>:that the stats to skills table is marred by the fact that skills from
stat
>:raises are at least partially a function of style.  It's proven to be
true
>:for Aimed Blows and Wastes definitely, and I see no reason why it
wouldn't
>:apply to every style.

Proven huh?  Well, I can't very well argue with you, since I used to use
_your_ charts!  (I have some that aren't necessarily better, but a friend
likes them, and it's more consistant that way...) Just to be safe, I
almost never train stats.  (CN; ST:evens, and between 7 and 15; WT and WL
evens).  It's just a guide line anyway.  And besides people make mistakes.
About a month ago, I recounted an AD warriors skill trains, and found 4
skills I missed!!!

OK.  So it didn't help.

Ben

References

Re: DM: Two Roll-Ups
ez007195@yogi.ucdavis.edu (Yeon Choi)
Mon, 27 Sep 1993 19:53:09 +0000

Referenced By

Re: DM: Two Roll-Ups
ez007195@yogi.ucdavis.edu (Yeon Choi)
Mon, 27 Sep 1993 19:53:09 +0000