Re: DM: Two Roll-Ups

From: ez007195@yogi.ucdavis.edu (Yeon Choi)

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 19:53:09 +0000

In article <2871lp$fbs@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> hitz@cuhhca.hhmi.columbia.edu (Benjamin Hitz) writes:
>In article <CDztDu.M9C@ucdavis.edu> ez007195@dale.ucdavis.edu (Yeon Choi)
>writes:
>>:In article <1993Sep16.193802.139@dragon.acadiau.ca>
>860099w@dragon.acadiau.ca (Martin Ward) writes:
>
>Just for sheer entertainment, I'm going to argue pettily with some of the
>points here.

Ah, being petty for all the civilized world to see.  Now I remember
why I liked the net so much. :)

>Better point out first that Trump is a _much_ more experienced manager
>than I am.

Better point out that Trump isn't quite the manager he used to be.  While
I might be one of the people who started saying things like, "but at
15 DF you get *5* more skills," I really don't look at the charts I helped
to develop very much anymore.  I`m one of those dreaded "roleplayers,"
and so my number-crunching sensibilities have deteriorated significantly.

Plus, I have a job now, so staying up late writing C programs to maximize
roll-ups doesn't happen much either.

>>:>     13-5-4-18-10-11-9
>>:>
>>:>What would you do?
>>:>
>>:
>>:If I had this roll-up, I would go this way:
>>:
>>:            SL
>>:ST 13 + 2 = 15
>>:CN  5 + 0 =  5
>>:SZ  4 + 0 =  4
>>:WT 18 + 3 = 21
>>:WL 10 + 3 = 13
>>:SP 11 + 0 = 11
>>:DF  9 + 6 = 15
>>:
>>:Small characters are notorious for getting a) little damage, and b)
>killed.
>>:If you get little damage with this character, you should either DA
>>:immediately, or just resign yourself to a horrendous losing record until
>>:you get Master Attack.  I know, I've suffered through enough small off-
>>:ensives myself (the only one I had any success with was a 17 ST SZ 4
>>:Lunger, and even he only got normal damage).
>
>Little Damage does suck.  But I might consider leaving the ST at 13, and
>bumping the WL to 15.

Back when I was in Kati-Tei, a friend of mine read an article on plungers.
It stated, point blank, that 13 ST SZ 4 *guaranteed* normal damage (ob-
viously, in retrospect, it wasn't written about characters in general but
with one particular character in mind).  So my friend my his ST 13 SZ 4
Plunger and guess what?  It got little damage.  Damage ratings are greatly
underrated, in my opinion, and any character that starts with little
damage (outside of a pure sponge TP) is asking for a horrendous loss record.

True, a character can train ST, but why waste the time?  Also, if you get
little damage with a 15 ST SZ 4 character, the odds are better for you to
raise ST just once and get normal damage.

It's all a crap shoot, I guess.  I actually made a ST 11 SZ 4 striker, who
got little damage on his roll-up.  I trained his ST to 12 and got normal
damage.  Unfortunately, it seems that damage rating is affected by the
amount of mass you put behind the blow.  Scimitar and Broadsword attacks
were bouncing off my opponents Ring and Chain mail like the sword was made
of rubber.

>>:Stat by stat:
>>:
>>:ST 15:  As I said before, you need a good ST in order to avoid little
>>:	damage hell.  It also helps with encumbrance (should you choose
>>:	to weear any armor.  I would go ALE/L: the best protection nto
>>:	weight ratio, although it still doesn't give a lot of help).
>
>You do get an attack and parry at 15, and it does give you the BA.  But
>with that size, I would be _real_ suprised if you ever got out of Normal.

I haven't looked at my tables lately, but I think it's possible for even
a SZ 3 character to get good damage.  Of course, I've only ever had 1 SZ 3,
so I can't say for sure.  The attack and parry don't mean much, but the
use of the BA sure does.  Just a question, though, doesn't the BA require
a 7 SZ to use?

>>:CN  5:  A 5 CN isn't very different from an 11 CN, and those points can
>>:	go to more useful stats that give skills useful inthe Champs
>>:	class, should you make it that far.
>
>I'm not sure about this.  It's probably true for slashers, who have
>basically zero defensive ability.  That 11 CN _might_ give you a chance to
>riposte.  But I doubt it would make the difference in even 1/15-20 fights.
>11 CN might keep you alive longer, but I still wouldn't add points to it.

If you're getting hit, you're not fighting your slasher correctly.  Those
extra riposte and defense skills are going to give you a chance to riposte,
*not* the extra damage taking.  I've noticed that characters who have great
initiative, also seem to have anti-initiative: once somebody starts pounding
on them, they just get slashed into ground beef.

>>:SZ  4:  Nice size, but for a character like this hardly ideal.  I'd
>>:	prefer to switch SZ and SP myself, as strange as that sounds.
>
>Yeah, but the speed will help the Slasher.  If you put 6 points of SP into
>WL...  (well, you'd have a good lunger).  I have a 13-5-4-17-17-13-15 LU.
>Great Skills!  Doesn't hit too hard (normal damage), doesn't have the
>greatest endurance.  10-6, 2 Masters and 2 Adexs.

10-6?  Do you mean 14-6 when he goes to AD?  Maybe, but if you've got a
decent manager in your arena this guy isn't going to get to be DM for long.
Trust me, I know, this guy is going to be absolute meat for any sponge TP
who comes along.  Visions of Wailin' Van Halen dance in my head.

>>:	I've heard that some people like to give their slashers a lot
>>:	of WL, but my best ones (the few, the proud, the survivors) have
>>:	all had WL's in the 11-13 range.
>
>15 is allegedly less of a breakpoint than 13.  Data others have collected
>indicate you get _no_ skills at 13, but 3 or 4 at 15.  The trade off here
>is WL and ST.  Higher WL, you last longer; higher ST, you hit harder.
>_Assuming_ that this approximatly cancels, I would go for the WL because
>you can train stats with it.  This guy has good enough stats to think
>about things after he/she maxes out in skills.  (Also, it will be easier
>to train the ST to 14 with a 15 WL... But there are 2 skills at 15 ST you
>will lose if you train to it before you max out.)  I don't think that with
>a 15/16 ST this guy will do good damage, and I suspect he'll do normal
>with 13.

I don't worry much about the difference between 118 skills and 120 skills
if it means things like damage ratings will suffer.  Of course, I've never
been a manager who has worried about characters maxing out (I've always
abandoned my characters before that dread event happened, although with this
new job I've gotten maybe I'll start up White Lion and Wailin' Van Halen
and see what it's like to max out on skills).

>>:>This is what I think would be the best design
>>:>
>>:>     13-5-4-21(+3)-15(+5)-11-15(+6) Striker
>
>This is too good a roll-up to waste on a ST (IMHO).  On the other hand, if
>he does enough damage (and gets his learns), he'll probably TV (around
>Adepts???), and has a shot a TC'ing.  Slasher don't TV as much, but
>they're better in AD/Primus.

Agreed.  I'm not sure why strikers don't do well, maybe it's their poor
attack bonus, but they sure seem to suck.  To misquote Biff Frothingslosh,
"Anything that will make a good striker, will make a better something
else."

>>:>My brother had this roll-up: 4-12-13-9-16-5-11
>>:>
>>:>He decided on this: 5-12-13-15-21-5-13 Total Parry
>
>I would guess you'd have to DA 5-10 guys before you got another one even
>this good!
>
>>:ST  4 + 3 =  7 or  5 or  5
>>:CN 12 + 0 = 12    12    12
>>:SZ 13 + 0 = 13    13    13
>>:WT  9 + 4 = 13    13    15
>>:WL 16 + 5 = 21    21    21
>>:SP  5 + 0 =  5     5     5
>>:DF 11 + 2 = 13    15    13
>>:
>>:With this kind of roll-up, you've got two choices: Shortsword Lunger or
>>:Small Shield TP.  Personally, I prefer the Small Shield TP because that
>>:styles relies less on damage-doing and conserves endurance better, but
>>:that's just my personal opinion.
>
>Don't forget to give your TP's weapons!!!  At least make them try to
>swing!!!  The advantage of a 7 ST over a 5 is that you can freely train to
>14 without loosing a skill (There are skills at 7 ST -- 1 attack, 1 Parry)

7 strength raises?  In regular AD?  What arenas have you been in and
how are you doing there?  Not only would you lose 7-14 skills from attrition
(assuming you made every single raise the first time you tried it), but
why bother unless it becomes a real problem?  You have become a true
number cruncher!

Also, not to rain on your number parade, but there is *significant* evidence
that the stats to skills table is marred by the fact that skills from stat
raises are at least partially a function of style.  It's proven to be true
for Aimed Blows and Wastes definitely, and I see no reason why it wouldn't
apply to every style.

>TP's tend to learn quite well, even with 11 and 13 WT's.  I run 2 regular
>AD teams, and this is better than about 1/2 of the 10 warriors...

I think I may have 2 guys out of the 6 I currently run who are better
than this, so I agree that I would definitely keep this warrior.

Trump

References

Re: DM: Two Roll-Ups
ez007195@dale.ucdavis.edu (Yeon Choi)
Mon, 27 Sep 1993 03:22:41 +0000
Re: DM: Two Roll-Ups
hitz@cuhhca.hhmi.columbia.edu (Benjamin Hitz)
Mon, 27 Sep 1993 15:42:49 +0000

Referenced By

Re: DM: Two Roll-Ups
ez007195@dale.ucdavis.edu (Yeon Choi)
Mon, 27 Sep 1993 03:22:41 +0000
Re: DM: Two Roll-Ups
hitz@cuhhca.hhmi.columbia.edu (Benjamin Hitz)
Mon, 27 Sep 1993 15:42:49 +0000