RE: AG stuff

From: "T. Woods" <twoods@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>

Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 00:00:00 +0000

On 26 Jun 1995, Ryu70 wrote:

>
> I disagree.  Drackmoor, the elf, is already heading towards
> 28 STR and already has daze 16! And he's only 2600 power.  Like
> I mentioned before, he could just go no armor, use a 20 point
> weapon and be close to no encumbrance, cast speed, cast daze
> once, swing once or twice, fight over.  Blanka could also do
> this except he has his deadly (ha, yeah right) high level vertigo
> instead of daze.

Ya, there are quite a few elves out there with decent strengths.
Give them a mega weapon and they'd kick but. :) Definately need heavier
armor.

>
> Yes, you are against stat scrolls like most of us, but it didn't
> stop you from abusing the system. ;)))  And look at Dorvan, you
> said he easily creamed everyone in his tourney groups, and had
> some difficulty in doubles only cause Bud went out and Dorvan had
> to take on two people at once.  To me, this is disgusting. :-)

I can vouch for that.  Dorvan is disgusting(ly good).  Don't we
all wish we could have abused the system in the same way? :)

> >up to then the first was.  That's what I mean by nobody will be able to
> >catch up to Rip, Paz, ect.  At least not for 6-7 years. :)
>
> EXCEPT for puds like Dorvan. :)  I think Dorvan will equal Paz
> in a lot of ways in 1 1/2 to 2 years.

Dex will probably be the same ALOT sooner then that. :)

>
>
> Happens to me all the time.  Evidently Hugh has set stat spheres at
> around a 30 stat maximum.  Everyone else in the party gets a free
> raise of cunning, but I get stuck with KP.  Like Dave mentioned,
> this benefits lower characters and also races like ogres, minos, etc.

I think this benefits the most the races that have bad stats.
Even at 2000 power level a half-troll would be lucky to have mid-20's in
his stats.  So they'll benefit from it alot longer then humans, goblins,
ect.  I don't think leads to a game imbalance though, humans and goblins
still kick butt.  Does make me consider making a half-troll though. :)

>
> I think what Dave is trying to say is that newer characters are
> benefiting just from starting later.  For the longest time, high
> power level people were getting max of _6 EP_ per guild fight!
> So, our old characters lost a lot of EP, whereas now the newer
> characters will go up faster in power than we ever did.
>

Maybe I'm wrong here but I was told that a LONG time ago Hugh
hadn't (or maybe had a very high) limit on the amount of e.p. you could
get per adventure.  Also e.p. was ALOT easier to get.  I think the max I
heard once was ~120 ep a turn.  I heard this from the player of the
charater that got that much e.p. Characters were frequently pulling down
80+ ep/turn.  Hugh then changed the system.  E.p. were alot harder to get
(more like 30 ep/turn).  I know that because everybody was dying Hugh
changed the adventuring mechanics so that groups could go out at high levels
(routinely 20) and survive (without having to retreat).  Within the last
year or 2 Hugh changed the system to make adventures harder(again), thus
meaning lower levels and less treasure.  Hugh has just changed the system to
allow more e.p./adventure, but ep isn't EASIER to get.  To get the
higher e.p. you have to go out at
higher levels, which is alot harder then it used to be.  Usually the higher
 your power level the higher difficulty adventure you can go on, which now
means more e.p.  How often does a group of 500 power level characters go
adventuring, retreat from one of
the encounters, and yet still get 80+ e.p.?  I don't know of many 500 power
 level groups who don't retreat from any encounters and get 80+ e.p.  In
fact I don't know of many 500 power level groups who routinely get 60+
e.p. per turn.  Yes Hugh has changed the system in some ways (like more
e.p./guild fight) but frequently these changes also help the higher power
level characters (higher your power level the more e.p. you will get in
guild and probably adventuring).  Also Hugh has also changed the system
several times to decrease the amount of gold/ep characters are getting.
The older characters benefited the most from these "fine-tunings" of the
AG game.  Also it's true that higher power level characters didn't gain
the same amount of ep at the same power level, but NOW that the changes
have been made they can gain the same (if not MORE) power levels then the
low/mid power level characters.  This is the main point.  I would say the
low power level characters gain power levels quickly because they don't
have many skill points/levels.  But mid power level characters RARELY
gain on the high power level characters.  They BOTH benefit from the
changes.  If they did equally well on the adventures they will gain
EQUALLY in power level.  Also the higher your power level the more ep you
usually get (again on the average) then mid and low power level
characters, and you certainly seem to get at least as much if not more
kill points (on the average) as the low and mid power level characters.
Also the higher power level characters usually are getting better
adventuring scores because they've developed all the necessarry skills to
do good on adventures.  All these things drastically affect power level.
Thus I don't think mid power level characters are GAINING on high power
level characters on the average.  There may be some that are gaining  power
levels faster then older characters, but there are also older characters that
are gaining power levels faster then other older characters (what's
Ripjack's average power level gain/turn?). Thus I won't argue that at the
same # of turns new characters aren't doing better then old characters.
There have been alot of changes in the system to make new characters
shoot up in power if properly designed and run.  But I don't think that
mid power level characters are GAINING on the high power level
characters.  High power level characters can get as much (and frequently
more) of the things that increase power level: ep, kill points, adventure
 scores, ect.  In fact I think I'll go through and do a little study.
 Since I only have the last 4-5 turns in Antar and the tournament I will
compare how much the power levels of the top 20 characters in
Antar have gone up per turn (think I have Antar starting at 126-7).  I will
 find their average power level gain/turn.  I'll do the same for the top 20
characters who's power level is less then 2000 on turn 126, and again for the
top 20 characters whose power level is less then 100 on turn 126.  Since
everybody has the same turn results people can double check me.  I'll write
back in a couple of days to tell people the results.

>
> NEW players are getting advantages that old players did not have
> when they started.  There is _a lot_ more gold available nowadays
> on lower level adventures.  Even guild fights give out a lot more
> gold than what we got when we first started.

Maybe.  I'm not so sure about the gold on lower level adventures
being more plentiful. Instead I think that the adventures are more
difficult then before (can't argue that one ;) and because you meet more
powerful and higher number of creatures at lower levels you get more gold
when/if you defeat them.  It's not really that gold is more plentiful,
but that you have to wade through alot more creatures at the same
difficulty level as before and thus get more gold at that the same
difficulty.  About guild fights I don't know.  I don't
see people at lower levels getting more then 1-2 gold per fight max,
frequently nothing.  Is this alot more gold at the lower levels then before?
Does the amount of gold difference in guild fights mean anything?  Seems
to me that if you want to amass gold you need to go adventuring. Also any
of these advantages are ALSO aiding high power level characters, usually
in direct proportion to their power level, meaning they're gaining power
levels as fast or faster then mid power level characters.

>
> I am not sure if you are saying that newer characters should be able
> to catch up to the older characters someday? What is this wall?
> Catching up to old characters? In development? If you are talking about
> a wall on catching up to older characters, I think this is the way
> it should be.  If you are talking about development in a character,
> I'd say there is no wall.  There have been many changes over the

There is a very apparent wall.  For example, when you get to 24+
wsp your chance of gaining wsps is so small that you'll hardly ever gain
a wsps.  And if you happened to have a low or mediocre cunning (below ~25)
you'll pretty much never get beyond level 7 (if you get THAT far).  But
characters nowadays can gain wsps fast.  As I said before, frequently
characters are weapon lord by 500-600 power level.  But by this time
they'd be lucky if their cunnings were in the high teens.  The characters
need time to increase their stats before they start gaining more. In
truth this is part of the game.  Hugh has made it easy for characters to
quickly gain points in d/r, dp's, and most especially wsps when at low
levels with these skills.  These rapid increases equate to rapid power
level gains. But when you start reaching the mid power levels
you better have good stats or you'll never keep progressing.  It takes
time to get these stats, which basically means that the characters
stall.  They keep getting ep, raising stats now and then, but just don't
gain much in the way of d/r, dps, wsps.  How many times have you had a
character shoot up to 25-27 wsps then not gain any for months, even
years?  Too see an increase you need to increase the stats.  This
actually can happen at ANY power level if the stat (cun or stam) isn't
high enough to see an increase in the skill, but is most apparent when
you reach the "wall".  This directly equates to stalled power level gains
because the character is not gaining any d/r,wsps, dps.  Finally at about
2000 power level the stats are high enough that they start to have a
noticeable impact on the gaining of d/r, dps, ect again.  So from then on by
raising a stat (say stamina or cunning) 1-2 points you're more then
likely to see an increase in wsps, dr, or dp's.

> years that aid advancing characters, especially newer characters.
> EP gains increase in guild and adventuring as you advance.  Gold and
> items have increased a huge amount over the years for newer characters.

I don't think gold and ep are so much more abundant now
then in the past.  Maybe at the same levels there is more gold, but you
definately have to fight tougher/more creatures to get that gold.  There
have also been alot of changes to the system that helped older
characters, the change in the difficulty of adventures, the change in
amount of e.p. earned. Also you say that because some of the changes have
been implemented now then it benefits the lower power level characters
more.  This isn't the point I'm trying to make. I argue that low power
level characters can't catch up to high power level characters.  These changes
 in the system are for everybody, and alot of them benefit high power level
characters more then lower power level characters.  Thus power level
raises will AT LEAST be equal between mid and high power level
characters on the average.  Some mid power level characters gain power
levels faster then others and may gain on older characters.  But there
are also some of the higher power level characters that gain more then
most other characters (anybody think Ripjack's power level is stalled?)

>
> Hey, Todd, notice how many people used Parry as their main defense? :)
>

Ya, but there's a big difference between trying to parry Asa's
longsword and Hulk's gauntlet (especially while he's beserk!) .  How many of
these people had intelligent parry?  Of ones that didn't have intelligent parry
, or turned it off, how many won their brackets?  Seems to me that the ones
who won didn't parry exlusively. Hint, hint. :)

>
> (Mike looks about.  'Huurrh? I could've sworn I mentioned that to
> Hugh before.' :))
>

Egads, not another advocate of this. :)

>
> Dave has bugged Hugh on this in the past.  Same with spellcasters in
> guild.  If you end up blinking to extended range, chances are you
> don't want to close back to long range.
>

Wonder if we'll ever get a change.

>
> Sounds like a Magic card to me. :)  Then again, everything sounds
> like a Magic card these days....

I think you have too many addictions. :)

Later,
	   Todd

References

RE: AG stuff
ryu70@aol.com (Ryu70)
Mon, 26 Jun 1995 00:00:00 +0000

Referenced By

RE: AG stuff
ryu70@aol.com (Ryu70)
Mon, 26 Jun 1995 00:00:00 +0000