RE: AG stuff From: ryu70@aol.com (Ryu70) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 00:00:00 +0000 Subject: Re: AG stuff From: dsaville@unm.edu (David G. Saville) I wrote: >>One qualm I have on these super heavy weapons is that all should be >>2 handed. Fatigue 20 on a mega mace but using one hand??? Hmmm... >>let's see...could it be, oh, I don't know....MAUG that this would >>favor??? :) I don't think there should be a heavier shield...again >>fatigue 20 but one handed is a no-no in my opinion. 26 protection... Dave wrote: > If you can believe a 10 pt shield and 10 pt mace and hammer >can be wielded with one had with the required str, what is the >problem with a 20 pt with a gross str? You'll notice that two >hands are only required in the existing wpn table and my proposed >wpns when the shaft in long enough to swing at long range. Perhaps one hand use for really tall characters, but I don't see the reality of these mega weapons for short people. The weapon itself would outsize the character! Yeah, it's a fantasy game, but there has to be some realism. At least a restriction of two hand use for short people. > BTW, Maug will likely never be strong enough for the super >heavies. The wpns my characters may pick up from the list are >the War Flail (for Paz) and the Massive Hammer (for Vrock). I think Maug can work into a 20 point weapon just as well as a character who began with a starting 18 strength. Not to give Maug's stats away, but starting with some points less in strength won't make much difference in the long run as you can raise any stat as much as you want. If you mean that you want to always have platemail on Maug _with_ a mega weapon, then I stand corrected on Maug never being strong enough for the mega weapons. :) As for your characters picking up mega weapons, yes, I notice they are a goblin and a dwarf. And as Todd has mentioned, I don't see mega weapons helping the high strength/slower type races out as much as it would help the faster and/or higher dex/cunning characters and races. Just a new way for fast characters to beat the slower types even worse. Perhaps there should be some sort of restriction/ limitation/sacrifice to use a super heavy weapon so that it aids the brute character more than it would a fast character. >>There is the possibility of abuse with these super heavy >>weapons....I can forsee an 18 STR starting human design >>who picks up daze later on. 40 STR, mega mace, daze around >>level 10-13. > This design would most likely only come about with monsters. >This character, to have any other stats to move with, would take >longer than I have played. I disagree. Drackmoor, the elf, is already heading towards 28 STR and already has daze 16! And he's only 2600 power. Like I mentioned before, he could just go no armor, use a 20 point weapon and be close to no encumbrance, cast speed, cast daze once, swing once or twice, fight over. Blanka could also do this except he has his deadly (ha, yeah right) high level vertigo instead of daze. I rethought the starting design and training for a mega weapon human, and instead of 40 STR needed, this is what I came up with: I've gone over some numbers for a starting 18 14 1 13 human and in 2 1/2 to 3 years this design could have around 35 28 20 27 WITH a super heavy weapon, at least daze 10. The 35 STR really isn't even necessary either as 30 STR is all that's needed for a 20 point weapon, don't wear armor (don't have to when all you have to do is daze the opponent once and then swing once or twice), and instead of spending EP for the 35 STR put it into higher daze level or into CM-Speed. Of course this is purely guild fighting and one on one fights, this design would definitely not do as great on adventures. >>I could never find a scroll!!! Only a few old players were able to >>talk a lot of other players out of their scrolls. Perhaps this is >>why it sounds like old players had a ton of scrolls stashed. I WAS >>NEVER ALLOWED TO ABUSE THE SYSTEM!!! ;) (ain't that right, Dave, >>Mr. 6 Earthy Browns? ;-) > To be fair, Mike, you should mention that I have been a >leading advocate of eliminating stat/skill scrolls. Over a couple >years, I accumulated a bunch of scrolls that none of my guys could >really benefit from. I was not about to sell them. So, I brought >an old design out of retirement. I retired Dorvan because I messed >up and started his str too low. He abused the snot out of E browns >and got a 24 str. This is an example of how most things both help >and hurt me. A previous post described why Paz doesnt like scrolls >while Dorvan certainly loves them. Yes, you are against stat scrolls like most of us, but it didn't stop you from abusing the system. ;))) And look at Dorvan, you said he easily creamed everyone in his tourney groups, and had some difficulty in doubles only cause Bud went out and Dorvan had to take on two people at once. To me, this is disgusting. :-) I agree that stat scrolls didn't benefit higher power level characters, instead helping mid or low power characters (or in the case of E.Browns any elf or halfling). Golden's stats were all over the limit when it came to E.Browns and Purple scrolls. I did manage to scrounge a Forest Green scroll before her strength passed 28. Mike ***** Subject: Re: AG stuff From: "T. Woods" <twoods@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> On 24 Jun 1995, David G. Saville wrote: >> Actually, this has happened in AG in the past. I can not >> comment on the future, but the so called second generation >> characters have caught the first generation. Golden, Vanya, Rip, >> and Paz can compete very well with much older characters. Granted Todd wrote: > Also the second generation of characters were designed better >then the first. Thus the second generation will be ALOT harder to catch >up to then the first was. That's what I mean by nobody will be able to >catch up to Rip, Paz, ect. At least not for 6-7 years. :) EXCEPT for puds like Dorvan. :) I think Dorvan will equal Paz in a lot of ways in 1 1/2 to 2 years. >> Good springs benefits go down in porportion to your current rating in >> that particular area. For example, the same spring that will give >> Paz 10 KP will give another character a dex pt. Again, another >> way for the low/mid range characters to gain ground. > I didn't think that a single pool had multiple affects. If Paz >drank from a pool and got something,then BB drank from the spring, they'd >both get the same "type" of thing, only BB would probably get more >because doesn't have as high d/r, dp's, ect. Does help low power level >characters the most. Happens to me all the time. Evidently Hugh has set stat spheres at around a 30 stat maximum. Everyone else in the party gets a free raise of cunning, but I get stuck with KP. Like Dave mentioned, this benefits lower characters and also races like ogres, minos, etc. >> Another way that newer folks have an advantage is the evolving >> game system. Part of the reason second generation characters >> caught the first generation is that for the first couple years >> when adv was not introduced, 30 odd ep was a great guild turn. >> Nowadays, 30 ep is considered a poor showing. >I'm not sure exactly what the highest amount is >(12?) but I know you can't get this for a regular fight until at least >2000+ power level. So higher level characters are probably getting more >e.p. on both adventures and in the guild. Their stats costs more, but >this is balanced out to a great extent by higher e.p. When a I think what Dave is trying to say is that newer characters are benefiting just from starting later. For the longest time, high power level people were getting max of _6 EP_ per guild fight! So, our old characters lost a lot of EP, whereas now the newer characters will go up faster in power than we ever did. >> to another post, it was well over a year after adventuring >> started that I could buy my first Medallion of returning. Fostils >> Packs were not even in existance. >For many NEW players it might take this long to get a medallion >of returning. For players that already have characters they can start >new characters and make sure they have money for medallion, ect. So if >anything it's not really new characters that are benefiting from this, >but new characters played by old players. There are some players that NEW players are getting advantages that old players did not have when they started. There is _a lot_ more gold available nowadays on lower level adventures. Even guild fights give out a lot more gold than what we got when we first started. > Again I have to say that all the changes listed above help low >power level characters shoot up, but then a wall is inevitably reached. >Few and far between are the characters that can break through this wall. >Those are the ones that may eventually reach the top battle groups in the >tournament, but for most characters if they do well they raise in power >levels fast but then hit a wall and only go up in power levels as fast as >the high power level characters. I say let's look at the tournament. I am not sure if you are saying that newer characters should be able to catch up to the older characters someday? What is this wall? Catching up to old characters? In development? If you are talking about a wall on catching up to older characters, I think this is the way it should be. If you are talking about development in a character, I'd say there is no wall. There have been many changes over the years that aid advancing characters, especially newer characters. EP gains increase in guild and adventuring as you advance. Gold and items have increased a huge amount over the years for newer characters. Mike ***** Subject: Re: AG stuff From: "T. Woods" <twoods@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> On 24 Jun 1995, David G. Saville wrote: >> Slight correction....I meant vs super tanks like top ogres, not >> most of the tourny competition. > So how fast was Paz vs. the typical non-super tank design >characters? Because if Paz is as fast or faster, and he can fairly >quickly (game time) pick up a war flail, it just shows that humans, Just to see how fast Paz really is (not really related to picking up weapon points in a new war flail): Mixed tourney: 1st time we fought: Coeus/Golden vs Hawk/Paz (note that Paz was using a retreat strategy at times so he is actually faster :) ): Coeus: Att 0/8, Dodge 6/8 Golden: Att 8/23, Parry 7/10 Hawk: Att 1/3, Dodge 8/13, Parry 1/3 Paz: Att 4/15, Dodge 4/4, Retr 8/10 2nd fight: Coeus: Att 1/13, Dodge 12/12 Golden: Att 2/13, Parry 9/11 Hawk: Att 9/16, Dodge 1/3, Parry 2/2 Paz: Att 2/15, Dodge 9/9, Retr 11/12 3rd fight: Coeus: Att 1/7, Dodge 11/13 Golden: Att 3/13, Parry 6/9 Hawk: Att 10/14, Dodge 0/1, Parry 2/3 Paz: Att 1/14, Dodge 3/3, Retr 10/11 Doubles tourney: (Golden/Paz vs the world) 1st fight: Ripjack: Att 8/36, Parry 20/22 Vanya: Att 2/21, Parry 17/17 Paz: Att 1/27, Dodge 18/19, Retr 18/20 Golden: Att 4/12, Parry 13/18 2nd fight: Grimtooth: Att 0/4, Parry 1/7 Hulk: Att 2/3, Defense none Paz: Att 4/7, Retr 4/4 Goldy: Att 18/19, Parry 3/3 3rd fight: Asa: Att 0/11, Parry 10/11 Graykor: Att 0/10, Parry 17/20 Paz: Att 2/12, Dodge 5/5, Retr 5/5 Goldy: Att 11/21, Parry 11/11 4th fight: Coeus: Att 1/12, Dodge 13/13 Elric: Att 3/13, Dodge 5/8, Parry 6/7 Paz: Att 2/14, Dodge 5/6, Retr 6/6 Goldy: Att 8/18, Parry 10/12 5th fight: Sten: Att 0/3, Dodge 4/7, Parry 7/13 Nigel: just blast/daze for attacks, Retr 2/7 Paz: Att 4/10, Retr 2/2 Goldy: Att 9/17, Parry 1/1 6th fight: Sten: Att 3/3, Dodge 1/5, Parry 5/11 Nigel: just blast/daze for attacks, Retr 4/8 Paz: Att 4/14, defense none Goldy: Att 9/12, Parry 3/3 Perhaps Dave can dig up Paz's Singles stats as that will give a more accurate picture of how fast Paz really is (and he's only stats/init!). Hey, Todd, notice how many people used Parry as their main defense? :) Mike ***** Subject: Re: AG stuff From: dsaville@unm.edu (David G. Saville) Dave wrote: >One thing I have thrown out in passing is an item from DM >that I could see helping this problem. Establish guilds that >you must move into once you get to X power and do not allow >communiction or movement back to the lower guilds. (Mike looks about. 'Huurrh? I could've sworn I mentioned that to Hugh before.' :)) M ***** Subject: Re: AG: Ideas? From: "T. Woods" <twoods@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> On 23 Jun 1995, Garrett R Le-Page wrote: >> either I or my opponent spent the whole fight retreating to extended >> range, closing to long range, retreating to extended range..... Todd wrote: > Which is why it needs to be changed so that at long you'd dodge >instead of retreat. Dave has bugged Hugh on this in the past. Same with spellcasters in guild. If you end up blinking to extended range, chances are you don't want to close back to long range. M ***** Subject: AG: On the side... From: aly@bdt.com (Alan Yip) >Just curious to see what other people got as Gate prizes for the tourney. >I got a Salinger's Disc... whatever that is. Oh, sure. You get it as a _gate prize_! I had to win top group Doubles and all I got was this trinket.... *sniff* M ***** Subject: Re: AG: On the side... From: sean <sean@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> On Sat, 24 Jun 1995, Alan Yip wrote: >> Just curious to see what other people got as Gate prizes for the tourney. >> I got a Salinger's Disc... whatever that is. Sean wrote: >No clue what it does yet.... I know someone else who got one I think. >If I hear anything I will let all know. As far as prises go... >Protection gem, Celestial order pyramid, and something called Norstrum's >charm...Like you said...Whatever that is! :) If anyone knows, please >tell!!!! :) Sounds like a Magic card to me. :) Then again, everything sounds like a Magic card these days.... M Referenced By Up