Re: AG stuff

From: "T. Woods" <twoods@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>

Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 00:00:00 +0000

On 24 Jun 1995, David G. Saville wrote:

> In article <lepag001.803830937@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,
> Garrett R Le-Page <lepag001@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

>      Actually, this has happened in AG in the past.  I can not
> comment on the future, but the so called second generation
> characters have caught the first generation.  Golden, Vanya, Rip,
> and Paz can compete very well with much older characters.  Granted
> the game has changed alot over the years and it would take longer
> for fifth and sixth generations to get to the top, but I think
> superior designs and management can get there.  Looking back, there
> were certainly mistakes that I made with Paz that have hurt him.

Also the second generation of characters were designed better
then the first. Thus the second generation will be ALOT harder to catch
up to then the first was.  That's what I mean by nobody will be able to
catch up to Rip, Paz, ect.  At least not for 6-7 years. :)

>
>      Actually, the mid range power people were the ones to benefit
> from scrolls the most.  Most of the stat scrolls were useless to
> high power folks due to the programmed maximums. Sten, for example,
> had stats above the maximums before the scrolls came out.  No
> matter what Sten did, he could not get any benefit from them.
> So, in effect, scrolls allowed midranged folks close ground on
> the upper ranks by artificially giving them free ep.

Yes and no.  The stat scrolls helped the mid power level
characters the most (and elves, halflings, ect).  However the other types
that granted things like Magic resistance, poison/d resistance were NOT
read by the mid power level characters.  Also only the mid power level
characters that had ALOT of money could afford the scrolls that increased
stats, and that usually meant that the players of those characters at
least ran other mid power level characters, and often higher power level
charcters, too afford the price of the scrolls.  I.e. how did you (Dave)afford
the Earthy Brown scrolls you got?  I bet you used money/items that you
got from your higher power level characters to get them (either that or
they're the ones that found the scrolls in the first place) or used
connections that you had formed from running higher level characters.  A
player who only ran one character that was ~1500 power level would have
been hard pressed to get the money to buy 1 scroll (at the end Earthy
Brown Scrolls were going for 2000 gold!).

>
> Good springs benefits go down in porportion to your current rating in
> that particular area.  For example, the same spring that will give
> Paz 10 KP will give another character a dex pt.  Again, another
> way for the low/mid range characters to gain ground.

I didn't think that a single pool had multiple affects.  If Paz
drank from a pool and got something,then BB drank from the spring, they'd
both get the same "type" of thing, only BB would probably get more
because doesn't have as high d/r, dp's, ect.  Does help low power level
characters the most.

>
> Bad spring's detrements go up with your rating in an area.  A spring
> that will make one character temporarily ill will take a dex pt
> from someone with high dex.  More opportuniny to gain ground.
>

Ya, this is why low power level characters gain power levels so
quickly.  But then (about when they get to 1500+ power levels) they've
got high enough d/r, dp's. ect that they are suffering just like the high
power level characters.  They're gaining less and losing more.  So they
SLOWLY inch up on the higher power level characters.  But from what I've
seen higher power level characters FREQUENTLY get better e.p. then lower
level characters.  Now this is on the average, some lower power level
characters do really well.  But the amount of e.p. that I've seen good
high power level groups pull down consistently is ALOT higher then what
low and mid power level groups pull down.  The high power level
characters have higher stat raises, but they seem to get more e.p. on the
average, and a stat raise at 30 means ALOT more then a stat raise at 17.

> Dieties were not around when most first-third generation folks
> started.  We did not get Kellen to give us wpn lord in unheard
> of time, etc.  Again, faster improvement for the newer characters.
>

Ya, but again you hit a road block VERY quickly.  Lower power
level characters jump up to weapon lord, even lvl 6 quickly (frequently
by about 600-700 power level).  But then the gains stop coming.  They've
hit a wall.  And because their stats aren't that good they can't push
beyond that wall.  They have to spend many turns raising cunning before
their wsp starts to go up again, and for many it NEVER does.  So again
there is a fast raise in power level but then suddenly the character
doesn't get ANY raises.

> Another way that newer folks have an advantage is the evolving
> game system.  Part of the reason second generation characters
> caught the first generation is that for the first couple years
> when adv was not introduced, 30 odd ep was a great guild turn.
> Nowadays, 30 ep is considered a poor showing.
>

And now the amount of e.p. you can get has increased even
more.  But who is this going to help currently?  I don't think it will
help the low-mid power level characters that frequently die on levels
8-12 adventures.  I think this will increase the amount of e.p. gained by
the high power level characters MORE then the lower power level
characters.  You have to be able to face opponents 2-3 times as powerful
as you and survive.  It takes time to develop characters that can do
this.  Low and usually mid power level characters just can't do this.
Also the amount of e.p. you can get in a typical battle in the guild goes
up with power level.  I'm not sure exactly what the highest amount is
(12?) but I know you can't get this for a regular fight until at least
2000+ power level.  So higher level characters are probably getting more
e.p. on both adventures and in the guild.  Their stats costs more, but
this is balanced out to a great extent by higher e.p.  When a
character is new they can raise multiple stats a turn, but at about 1000+
power level they've gotten down to the point where they'd be lucky to
raise 2 stats a turn, and about 1500 power level they can raise 1
stat/turn.  At about 2000 power level sometimes they can't even do that.
Thus a low power level character can rapidly get to mid power level, but
it takes a LONG time (if ever) to reach the high power levels (and it
doesn't help that the high power level characters are going up too :-).
A long time ago 2000 power level was considered to be high power level!

> to another post, it was well over a year after adventuring
> started that I could buy my first Medallion of returning.  Fostils
> Packs were not even in existance.

For many NEW players it might take this long to get a medallion
of returning.  For players that already have characters they can start
new characters and make sure they have money for medallion, ect.  So if
anything it's not really new characters that are benefiting from this,
but new characters played by old players.  There are some players that
graciously give money to new player's characters, but I don't think this
happens in the majority of cases.

>
>      I do not want to give the impression that I am against the
> changes that were made nor do I want to get down on newer characters.
> In fact, most game changes both help and hurt me.  I run quite a
> diverse set of characters and tend to have one at any given area
> of development.  I just want to give the board the point of view
> and reasons for older character opinions whenever game changes
> and the like come up for debate.

Again I have to say that all the changes listed above help low
power level characters shoot up, but then a wall is inevitably reached.
Few and far between are the characters that can break through this wall.
Those are the ones that may eventually reach the top battle groups in the
tournament, but for most characters if they do well they raise in power
levels fast but then hit a wall and only go up in power levels as fast as
the high power level characters.  I say let's look at the tournament.
We'd have to compare characters that are at different power levels but
did equally well.  Say compare all the high power level characters (as
an arbitrary mark say 3000+ power levels) that won 3 categories, 2
categories, 1 category to the mid power level characters (say 1500-3000)
and finally the low power levels (0-1500) that did the same.  I think it
would be interesting to see which gained the most power levels, which the
least.  Anybody up for it? :)

Later,
	Todd

References

AG stuff
aly@bdt.com (Alan Yip)
Wed, 21 Jun 1995 00:00:00 +0000
Re: AG stuff
lepag001@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Garrett R Le-Page)
Thu, 22 Jun 1995 00:00:00 +0000
Re: AG stuff
dsaville@unm.edu (David G. Saville)
Sat, 24 Jun 1995 00:00:00 +0000