Re: Looking for a fantasy PBEM.

From: "Steve Pritchard" <steve@spelbind.demon.co.uk>

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:00:00 +0000

MadCentral wrote in message
<19990715203957.07114.00000941@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
>Everything that you can do in an RPG can be stored in some form
>on a computer.  A GM uses pen and paper, a computer mod uses
>its hard drive... they are just storage for game information.
>Roleplaying is simply taking the part of a character other than
>yourself within framework of rules.

You honestly believe this? You honestly think you can store, on a
computer, the emotional response by a player to a certain situation? You
honestly believe that you can program a machine to react in a certain
manner to the actions of a person responding under stress or impulse? As a
GM I can be certain that a player will most likely react in a certain
manner when I present him with a type of situation. I know that Fred will
automatically distrust a certain type of NPC, I know that Bill will always
use a certain set of spells and potions when he is faced with a particular
opponent. Yes, you could probably flag certain fields in a data file to
try and simulate this but we both know that it won't have the same outcome
as if it is dealt with by a human moderator.

I think your definition of roleplaying and mine differ rather markedly if
this is how you view things. For you it would appear that roleplaying is
having a set of statistics and rolling a few random numbers to determine
what happens when a problem is encountered. Computers are very good at
this. when it comes to playing with the *minds* of the participants,
setting up situations that are supposed to give each player a different
image - purposely - and lead to confusion and uncertainty, you can forget
involving a computer.

You are talking about recording and storing. I am talking about
improvising, reacting and painting scenes.

>You might say that a computer
>mod RPG isn't an RPG because you aren't free to do whatever you
>like.  Yet you aren't in most tabletop RPGs either... you following a
>path designated by your GM as the ''plot''.  Even in really open and
>freestyle campaigns the GM will still being guiding you, albeit
>more subtlely.  You are more free to do what you want in most
>computer-mod PBM adventures than you are in many a ''linear''
>style RPG campaign module.

But "linear" style RPG's are rapidly becoming a lost cause. People don't
want to play by the rules - they want to play on the fly, they want to be
forced to improvise, they want to be challenged by the unexpected, they
want to make their GM sweat by coming up with something that he had not
anticipated. That same feeling cannot be achieved by playing against a
computer.

>I was referring to depth as in
>''information about the world in which the game takes part''... which is
>important for an RPG that aims to be long term and comprehensive.

Texts. Descriptions. Reports. All of these are files created by a human Gm
and saved away to give a "feel" of what the player sees or hears or asks
about. In every last one of these positions there is the case that this
text may become dated, or jaded, or may no longer reflect exactly what the
player sees. As a GM I can constantly update and redraw every last
parameter in my game when a player needs to know something. Why is that
wall no longer there? Why is the shop now empty and bare? Why won't the
King see the players? All of these are things that a human brain can deal
with quickly and well, using imagination and creativity. Computers lack
both of these rather important assets.

>>>When you compare a well crafted, hand-moderated game - with all it's
>machiavellian twists and turns of plot - to a computer moderated  RPG,
>then I just can't possible imagine how anyone can say the latter has more
>"depth".<<
>
>Because a good computer-moderated game has just as many twists and turns
of
>plot.  A couple of years ago I would have agreed with every word you
say....
>but I've learnt that I was wrong.  A good computer moderated adventure
has IN
>ITS STRUCTURE the ability for players to interact, roleplay, and ''drive
the
>plot''.  Furthermore, the computer is handling many hundreds of
players... all
>roleplayig their own way.. all with their own agenda... all with their
own
>network of interweaving plans.
>
>I have never, in my entire experience of roleplaying, seen as complex and
>fascinating a mixture of schemes, plots and plans as I am watching unfold
as I
>run DungeonWorld.

Sorry, Steve. We will have to agree to disagree here. This is becoming
more of a plug for how great your game is rather than a debate on why
computers will never be able to replace the human mind when it comes to
creativity and richness of description. That remains a fact until someone
radically alters the way computers work and no product plugging will
change it.

I'm sure DungeonWorld is a fascinating game; your enthusiasm does you
credit. However, if you are so convinced that it can provide the same kind
of depth and complexity that a human GM can, then you have played some
pretty piss-poor F2F games over the years, in my opinion.

>We have given the players the means and methods of
>interacting in a complex and believable manner, within a
computer-moderated
>structure of rules... and it works.  Its not *us* making the plots and
the
>schemes... we just tinker with it now and again... its the players.  The
level
>of roleplay is every bit as interesting as any hand mod I've seen.  If
youa re
>interested and open-minded about it I'll clip some of it and send it to
you so
>you can se what I mean... but only some... theres a *lot*.

Okay, I'd be interested. The reactions of players are what makes any game,
I agree, but the depth of the game is still a construct of the moderator.
Roleplaying can be done in computer environment when it comes to exchanges
between players, but it is a verbal thing with all the mind games dumbed
down. It has to be that way.

References

Re: Looking for a fantasy PBEM.
"Steve Pritchard" <steve@spelbind.demon.co.uk>
Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:00:00 +0000
Re: Looking for a fantasy PBEM.
madcentral@aol.com (MadCentral)
Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:00:00 +0000