Diplomacy Zine --- The Lost Chapter From: tedward@durin.cs.cornell.edu (Ted Fischer) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1990 05:11:06 +0000 Chapter Two of ELECTRONIC PROTOCOL: This chapter contains results from DRAGONSLAYER, BISMARCK, COLD WAR, and gunboat games JACAL, VERSAILLES, and MANHATTAN. Issue #137 =============================================================================== Results in this issue from Versailles: S04, Su04, F04, Au04, W04 =============================================================================== VERSAILLES: Spring 1904 ---England----------------------------------Turkey----------------------------- A STP S AUS (A Mos H) |A SEV S AUS (A Mos H) A Den - KIE |A Smy - CON A LON H |F Con - AEG F NTS S FRE (A Bel - Hol) |F BLA S (A Smy - Con) F BAL S (A Den - Kie) |---Germany---------------------------- F HEL S (A Den - Kie) |A SIL NMR F Edi - CLY |A BER NMR ---France-------------------------------|A RUH NMR A Par - BUR |---Austria---------------------------- A Bur - BEL |A Mos - WAR A MAR S (A Par - Bur) |A BUL S (A Rum - Ser) A Bel - HOL |A Rum - SER A Bre - PIC |A Vie - TRI F Mid - BRE |A Ukr - GAL ---Italy--------------------------------|A BUD S (A Vie - Tri) A BOH S (A Mun H) |F GRE - Alb CUTS A MUN S FRE (A Bur - Ruh) NSO |-------------------------------------- A Tri - Ser FAIL (Ret. ???) | A VEN - Tri FAIL | F ION - Gre FAIL | F ALB S (A Ven - Tri) CUT (Gre) | ----------------------------------------- Italian A Tri can retreat to Tyrolia or disband. POSITIONS: Austria: 7 A War Bul Ser Tri Gal Bud F Gre England: 7 A StP Kie Lon F Nts Bal Hel Cly France: 6 A Bur Bel Mar Hol Pic F Bre Germany: 3 A Sil Ber Ruh Italy: 6 A Boh Mun ??? Ven F Ion Alb Turkey: 4 A Sev Con F Aeg Bla PRESS: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From England. To France: A year ago you promised to move your fleet out of MAO this Spring. Needless to say, I'll be watching to see if you've kept your promise. As soon as Liverpool is safe I'll be able to shift my fleet in Clyde to the East. As for Germany, I still have not received the Fall move results or the Autumn press, but in the Winter press, Italy alluded to my taking Kiel and Berlin. That is my current plan. To Austria: Are you sure there is nothing I can do to help? My army in St. Pete is freezing his buns off. If you vacate Moscow (ie. whenever you no longer have a unit next to St. Pete), I'll move out my army to make your life a little easier. Good luck. To Italy: Sorry, but I can not attack Austria. He has been a kind and gentle ruler. Germany will be gone soon. Then you and Austria can square up and fight it out. May the best army win. To Turkey: The eyes of the world are upon you. We are all waiting to see in which direction you head next. May your choice be a wise one. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rome - World: How about we get rid of Austria and Germany and then declare a 4 way draw? I am certainly willing to do so. Rome - Vienna: I still think that my action was necessary to keep you from becoming unstoppable. I don't know whether you would have taken advantage of your position, but if not then why are you playing Diplomacy? If I was wrong about your intentions, then c'est la vie, but I think things are past the point of no return at this point. Flames going back and forth will get us nowhere. I have made my position clear and I stand by it (as have you). By the way, yes that was an offer of alliance. Rather desperate though. That sort of committment earlier could have changed things completely. Rome - London: Increasingly unprotected. Hmm.... Very interesting. Maybe those convoys need to start soon. Look at it this way. You will have only Austria and France on your border once Germany is gone. If you intend to attack Austria, you may as well begin now, to delay will only make France suspicious. Rome - Berlin: Looks like you're committed to this revenge thing, what with giving away Holland and all. Oh well. I hope you made the grab for Warsaw. Rome - Paris: Please send the flamethrowers, uh ... martinis, to my army in Venice ASAP. They should come in very handy. We can promise very EXTENSIVE and THOROUGH feild testing. Munich is lending a little gratuitous support for Bur-Ruhr on the off chance that he is not attacked and Ruhr is defended. If I lose Munich in the Spring, please comment in your Summer press whether you will support me back in. If I need support to get back in, I will give the specific move to support in the summer press also. This should make it clear to us (and everyone else too unfortunately) what to do in Fall about Munich if I am kicked out. If you had the foresight and courtesy and support me in the Spring, then I salute and thank you. Rome - Constantinople: Here is your chance. If an attack on Austria "won't be viewed in a negative light", go ahead and attack until he starts to see the negative light, and then consider where to go from there. After all, he does still have your center in Bulgaria (and the contested Rumanian center). Please tell me in your press whether you will help me with Gre in the Fall. This turn it is imperative that I keep him out of Serbia. In the Fall, attack Bulg, I will take Greece. As long as Rum cannot support Bulg, we will both succeed. In the Spring, I support you into Serbia. But unless you communicate to me in the press, I will have to assume you are doing nothing, and so I will have to concentrate elsewhere, hampering both of our attacks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Austria - Turkey,England: In my opinion, I think we are in a great position if we are indeed allies. I've done my part to establish an alliance though one could argue I did so out of pressure from Italy. That is, pressure from his forces, not his talk. Whatever the motivation, you can break my back by taking Moscow and Rumania. Since I'm in a tough bargaining position, I am willing to make a deal here. I suggest Moscow be occupied in the Fall by the ally who "needs it the most" and then vacated in the following spring. I nominate Turkey for to occupy Moscow in 1905. I assume Turkey would use the build to build a fleet in Smyrna. But whatever... the bottom line is that one army each in St. Petersburg, Warsaw, and Sevastopol is a good safe balance of power. Your comments are, of course, welcome. I know I've been doing a lot of talking recently. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paris - Rome: I realize that I promised to move my A Marseilles north as soon as possible, but considering your situation (Austria and possibly Turkey going against you), I figured it might be worthwile for the army to stick around in the event that you need help or something to fall back upon. If I got Begium and Holland this turn, and if you support my army Bur - Ruh in the Fall, then my army will go North, if you so desire. BTW, how are those recipies that we have sent you, are they as good as I have promied. Also, I am afraid that a trade of Munich for Spain was defeated by our esteemed scientists who rely on the olive crop to continue their experiments. Paris - London: Ok, we can talk more about Kiel during the Summer, but as I see it, I think Moscow and Warsaw would be better choices since it would then leave me to maneuver without running into you or Italy. Now, let's assume I support you into Kiel, where would you suggest I go next? =============================================================================== VERSAILLES: Summer 1904 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RETREATS Italy: A Tri - Tyr POSITIONS Austria: 7 A War Bul Ser Tri Gal Bud F Gre England: 7 A StP Kie Lon F Nts Bal Hel Cly France: 6 A Bur Bel Mar Hol Pic F Bre Germany: 3 A Sil Ber Ruh Italy: 6 A Boh Mun Tyr Ven F Ion Alb Turkey: 4 A Sev Con F Aeg Bla PRESS: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Turkey -> Austria/England: I like Austria's suggestion (of course :) but it also makes strategic sense. Italy can deadlock any fleets trying to get to him since Austria has one and I have one that's readily available. If I build a fleet in Smyrna, then he'll have to retreat those fleets. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- England -> France: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'll move Clyde back to Edi and then to Norway or something (any suggestions). You and I are now stuck. We must either attack each other, or we must stab someone (Yes, if I attack Austria, it would be a stab). So, where do we go next? I will convoy my army to Denmark and position it in Berlin, but then what? As for your units, Turkey has made his intentions known: he is siding with Austria. That being the case, Italy's days would appear to be numbered. My suggestion for you would be to build a fleet in Marseilles. If Italy wins the war in the south, then the fleet rots. If Austria/Turkey get the upper hand, you will want 2 fleets in the south to defend yourself. I also hope you'll move your Brest fleet to the south. I'll move my fleets as far away from you as I can so that you want worry of a stab from the north. PS. We should probably both order units to support the Italian army in Munich to make sure that Germany doesn't retake it. England -> Italy: In the Fall, I will order A Kie S Italian A Mun H. (France, why don't you have Bur support Mun, too.) That will decrease the odds of Germany retaking Munich. England -> Austria: During the Spring, you wrote: >I suggest Moscow be occupied in the Fall by the ally who "needs it the >most" and then vacated in the following spring. I nominate Turkey for >to occupy Moscow in 1905. I assume Turkey would use the build to build >a fleet in Smyrna. But whatever... the bottom line is that one army >each in St. Petersburg, Warsaw, and Sevastopol is a good safe balance >of power. Your comments are, of course, welcome. I would much prefer to leave things as they are now. Let's leave Moscow vacant and keep our armies in Sev, War, and StP. Even better idea, we ALL move to Mos and do so forever. That way we can't stab each other. (Yes, I will be ordering A StP - Mos and am assuming you will too). If Turkey needs a SC, let him have Greece. Since he is headed for the Mediterranean, Greece will be infinitely more useful. England -> Turkey: Good Luck. (and read my comments to Austria) If I were you, I'd move: A Con - Smy, F Bla - Con, F Aeg - Eas. Then you can support Con - Aeg next Spring and be all set up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rome-Vienna: Ouch. You outguessed me on that one. I expected Greece to hold. Oh well. Onward! I must say your strategy certainly has guts with regards to Turkey AND England. Rome-Paris: You certainly may have the support of Mun for Bur-Ruhr in the Fall. There seems to be some problem with the flamethrowers. The primary problem is that our troops were hung over for 2 days after their first practice with them, and the Austrian's attacked during that period. A secondary problem is that no one who drank it was sober enough to aim afterwards. The simple solution would be to build a mechanical flamethrower to use the martini as fuel, but the officer who presented this idea was lynched my the troops (and some of the officers). Instead, we are thinking that we may use it as a reward. For example, a Martini for Heroism award, a Purple Martini for being wounded, etc... We will report on this tactic next communique. Rome-Constantinople: Are you out of your mind? I could have preserved my position for at least another year by going along with the attack on you. But no, I make the only viable long term decision (which keeps you in the game also) and you are too bone-headed to take the chance when offered. My strategy was excellent except that I assumed rational play on your part. If you attack it will settle the whole issue. England will certainly also attack, in spite of his protests, as it is either France or Austria if he wants to expand. If you let Austria continue, I will probably lose after a long fight, and then Austria will turn on you. He has nowhere else to go. My apologies if you have been planning to attack all along. Also, please read Rome-London below (as if you weren't going to). Rome-London: That offer of Moscow to the Sev army was a masterstroke on Austria's part. He loses 1 center (which he didn't build for yet). In return, neither you nor Turkey can attack him. If Sev-Mos then StP is helpless and Sev cannot help an attack on Bulg. Therefore, don't do what he wants: Take Moscow yourself and let Turkey get 2 centers: Bulg AND Rum which he can take easily. What a deal. Both of you get an extra center over what he offered! p.s. I am not trying to start any trouble here because I am sure that France is already thinking about this, judging from his press, but you realize that if you don't attack Austria soon, he will have to assume that he is your next target, since you are ignoring this wonderful chance at Austria now. Anyway, where would you send St.P if you moved him? To the French border? Home? Take a hint from the French press and go for Austria now while the pickings are easy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Austria - Italy: Ok, no more flames. Though I don't think I've been hard on you :-). If you're going to stab, you have to expect to hear a scream or two. Austria - Turkey: Ok, you and Italy can really do a number on me this fall. I hope I have convinced you that a three way alliance with England is a better deal. I haven't seen much press from you so you really leave me guessing about your plans. But it seems obvious that you want your Bulgaria back. Ok, I can do that. Here's the deal: Austria: Bul - Rum Gre - Ion Turkey: Con - Bul Bla S Con - Bul Sev - Mos Aeg S Gre - Ion This gives you two builds while forcing me to disband a unit, maybe even two. That seems more than fair to me. It also moves one Italian unit away from Greece making it easier for you to take that center next season. If you join with Italy, I don't think you can do that well though I admit I'll probably be out of the game before the final outcome is known. I think the question you need to ask is can Italy/Turkey beat France/England? I'm not sure if I have ever seen that happen... Of course, if you *wanted* to let me keep Moscow, I wouldn't argue about it. That would save me one disband and that unit would then be available to support you into Greece next year. In this case, I'd suggest you move Bla - Con so you would have three fleets in the Mediterranean. Austria - France: Sure, it sounds like a worn record but seriously, is there any room for Italy in the endgame? I think not. So what better time than now to let him know just exactly how you feel about him and his knife? He doesn't have room to use his next build against me so you know it is going up on your border. And you, without a med fleet, are helpless to stop him. Think about it. =============================================================================== VERSAILLES: Fall 1904 ---England----------------------------------Turkey----------------------------- A Stp - MOS |A Sev - RUM A KIE S ITA (A Mun H) |A Con - BUL A Lon - DEN |F AEG S (A Con - Bul) F NTS C (A Lon - Den) |F BLA S (A Sev - Rum) F BAL S (A Kie H) |---Germany---------------------------- F HEL S (A Kie H) |A SIL NMR F Cly - EDI |A BER NMR ---France-------------------------------|A Ruh NMR FAIL (Disband) A Bur - RUH |---Austria---------------------------- A BEL S (A Hol H) |A WAR - Sil FAIL A Mar - BUR |A Bul - Rum FAIL (Disband) A HOL S (A Bur - Ruh) |A SER S (A Tri H) A PIC S (A Mar - Bur) |A TRI S (A Bud - Vie) CUT (Ven) F Bre - GAS |A GAL S (A Bud - Vie) ---Italy--------------------------------|A Bud - VIE A BOH S (A Mun H) |F Gre - Ion FAIL (Disband) A MUN S FRE (A Bur - Ruh) |-------------------------------------- A TYR S (A Ven - Tri) | A VEN - Tri FAIL (2:2) | F Ion - GRE | F ALB S (F Ion - Gre) | ----------------------------------------- POSITIONS: Austria: 5 A War Ser Tri Gal Vie England: 7 A Mos Kie Den F Nts Bal Hel Edi France: 6 A Ruh Bel Bur Hol Pic F Gas Germany: 2 A Sil Ber Italy: 6 A Boh Mun Tyr Ven F Gre Alb Turkey: 4 A Rum Bul F Aeg Bla SUPPLY CENTERS (New in caps, old in parens) Austria: 5 Vie, Bud, War, Ser, (Gre), (Mos), (Bul), (Rum), TRI England: 9 Lvp, Edi, Lon, Nwy, StP, Swe, Den, MOS, KIE France: 7 Mar, Par, Bre, Spa, Por, Bel, HOL Germany: 1 Ber, (Kie), (Hol) Italy: 6 Ven, Rom, Nap, Tun, Mun, (Tri), GRE Turkey: 6 Con, Smy, Ank, Sev, RUM, BUL BUILDS: England: 2 France: 1 Germany: -1 Turkey: 2 PRESS: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Turkey to Austria: Since you're letting me take Bulgaria that's what I did, and I moved to Rumania with support so we'd bounce and then you can disband that unit. I guess you're going to bounce England from Moscow (from his press) so I didn't try for Moscow. Turkey to Italy: Remember this is Gunboat diplomacy - we're not even SUPPOSED to have press at ALL. Your actions led to an irrevocable placement of my units so it's all your doing so stop whining about it. Turkey to England: There's no way you can stab Austria so you might as well be honest about it. I don't consider taking Moscow to be a stab especially since he was willing to give it to you. Turkey to France: Hope you do well against England's fleet superiority!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- England -> France: Not much else I can think to say at this point. I am going to try to position my armies in Berlin and Kiel. Let me know what you want to do next. I have to agree with Austria who said there is no room for Italy in the end game. The AT alliance is going to eat Italy alive. Let me know if you want me to support you in to Munich. Otherwise, I'll keep supporting Italy in holding. England -> Austria: If you get an army in Silesia, will you support my army Denmark - Berlin? England -> Turkey: From Austria's summer message about giving Bulgaria back to you, it sounds like you are in good shape. I hope the Moscow bounce did not mess anything up. Let me know if that is a problem (and I'll read your Fall press closely to see if it gives any information on Moscow). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paris - London: You want a suggestion for your fleets.. OK, preferably I would like to see them in Sweden, Finland, Gulf of Bothnia and Baltic Sea :-) I do understand that that is unrealistic. Ok..here's a serious suggestion.. definetely keep the fleet in Gulf of Bothnia on that side of Denmark. I would also like to see at least one other fleet over there - on the other side of Denmark. If you think about it, it's not that bad of a deal, it would be impossible for anybody to attack you thru Russia. As far as other fleets are concerned, one in Norway would be most grateful, I suppose the other could be located in North Sea since it would be absurd to ask you not to have one there and you do need a way to get units onto the mainland, though preferably, they would stay on your island :-) You're right, we're kind of stuck as far as where do we go from here. Well, you got Berlin (though I still say that Moscow and Warsaw are better choices for you, hint, hint..) after that, well, how tolerant are you of doing nothing. Not too much, as I should suspect..I am wide open to suggestions, I really do not want to have a war with you and considering the situation down south, it looks like my units will head down to help out the Italians, though when that will happen, I am not sure just yet. You know, with Berlin, Kiel, and St.P under control, you will get two more builds and could get them into Prussia and Livonia, give you one guess which way to head after that (ok, I'll jump the gun, Warsaw, Moscow, Ukraine, Silesia, Galicia, etc, etc...) As a continued agreement between us, I do have to insist on you not building any more fleets, and keep any and all fleets out of NAO, Irish Sea, Clyde, Liverpool, Wales, and London. Paris - Rome: The idea behind the flamethrower-martinis will be/has been tested out this past Fall in our campaign in Ruhr. The results of it will be known to you at the same time as it will be to me. BTW, (20/20 hindsight here :-) I think you would have been in a lot better position right now, if you would have waited 'till Turkey lost one more center, then he would have been really begging for help...Speaking of help, say the word and I be coming with flags waving... Paris - Constantinople: If you just passed up Moscow, Rumania and Bulgaria, then I feel sorry for you...Come on!!! Austria is almost giving you his centers and saying come and take them. I really can't believe that you will be so gullible as not to go after free centers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Austria - Italy: How did I do this season? Boy, my troops are getting tired. How about a truce? Or maybe my fleet can take a vacation in Tunis next Fall? Austria - England,Turkey: I hope our alliance has lasted this long... If our moves went as planned, we may be up 4 units over last year's total (from 18 to 22). Not bad for a start and we should be well positioned to drive through Germany and Italy. Good luck to us. =============================================================================== VERSAILLES: Autumn 1904 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- no retreats PRESS: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Austria - GM: I assume you will disband Silesia instead of Berlin? [gm: Of course.] Austria - Italy: Well, I almost guessed your moves correctly again. Too bad I overdefended Vienna; too bad help didn't arrive on schedule. Austria - Turkey: Gee, thanks. I needed that. Got any more salt :-). Austria - England/Turkey: Ok, so we are at 20 instead of 22. Too bad one of those lost gains went to Italy. Our balance of power is 9/6/5. Any chance I can have one of those centers back? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Turkey - Austria: Whoa! I guess there was a big lack of communication (of course!) on the last move. I'm building another fleet so that should help you out against Italy and I'll convoy an army to Sevastapol to support you into Moscow (unless England moves out voluntarily). Turkey - Everyone else: like England has 9 centers already...:) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- England -> France: Thanks for the long message this Fall. I will only build armies from now on and will move my fleets Eastward as you described. The only favor I have to ask that you move your army out of Ruhr (it makes my army in Kiel nervous). If you would position your armies in Hol, Bel, and Bur and leave Ruhr vacant, I'd be very happy. Other than that, as long as you don't put a fleet in Brest, our alliance is set. I'll keep convoying my armies to the Berlin area until we see how the East pans out and what our next course should be. England -> Austria: Apologies about Moscow. I thought my expressed plan was a good one. As always, let me know if I can help in any way. I will not attack Warsaw, move to Warsaw, or support anyone else in moving to Warsaw. England -> Turkey: I don't understand why your Fall Press was so hostile. In the Diplomacy games I've played, a bounce like the one I suggested is a well known method for providing security to a region. That is why I suggested it. England -> Italy: I'll keep supporting you in Munich as long as neither you nor France attack me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Italy - World: I am so confused. Here go England and Turkey doing exactly what I want so I chortle in glee. But then I read the press and find that it was all an accident? Maybe we should declare a 4-way draw when Austria is gone? Italy - Turkey: You may have Greece uncontested in the Fall, if you attack Serbia or Budapest in the Spring. I think your irrevocable position has been effectively revoked, so what do you say we just finish off Austria and call it quits. I still can't tell if your press is just to mislead Austria or whether you meant what you said. Italy-England: WARSAW! WARSAW! WARSAW! Italy-Paris: What with the recent phenomenal growth of your other neighbor, it might be best to keep your units ready in that area. I think I can do OK for now without any direct support. I do think that you need to get some sort of deal with England on Kiel and Berlin, as he has cut you completely off. If events take a very nasty turn (Turkey really is an Austrian ally) we will have to work out very carefully how to defend ourselves from an TAE alliance. The martinis have been very successful in recent campaigns. Our admirals think that we have rediscovered Greek Fire! You may be right about wating for Turkey to get weaker before attacking Austria, but there would have been nothing left after 3 seasons! Italy-Vienna: If you want a deal, make a specific offer that is worth my while. =============================================================================== VERSAILLES: Winter 1904 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUILDS: England: 2 A Lon, A Lvp France: 1 F Mar Germany: -1 (A Sil) Turkey: 2 A Con, F Smy FINAL POSITIONS Austria: 5 A War Ser Tri Gal Vie England: 9 A Mos Kie Den Lon Lvp F Nts Bal Hel Edi France: 7 A Ruh Bel Bur Hol Pic F Gas F Mar Germany: 1 A Ber Italy: 6 A Boh Mun Tyr Ven F Gre Alb Turkey: 6 A Rum Bul Con F Aeg Bla Smy PRESS: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paris - World: I don't know about you guys, but a 4 way draw is ok with me. Paris - London: Well, the fleet in Helgoland Bight makes me nervous. I made the first move toward our agreement, moving my fleet out of MAO (well actually the second, you haven't built any more fleets). Anyway, I think it's your turn to show friendship. Preferably your fleet in Helgoland Bight would move to either into Baltic area or Barent's Sea. Basically as long as it's not right next to North Sea, it's ok with me (and not anywhere West of England). I would like to hear somekind of a plan concerning Berlin/Kiel. Considering that they are/will be under your control, I think it's up to you to make some kind of a proposal. Also, have you noticed how hostile Turkey has been toward your suggestions? Now he is planning to help Austria attack you in Moscow! Are you going to sit for that?! C'mmon, get rid of them, before they get rid of you! Paris - Turkey: If you're concerned with England having 9 centers, why don't you do something about it. You're in the best position to attack him. Hear that England, I'd watch out for the 'friendly' Turk. Paris - Rome: The fleet in Marseilles was built to be put at your disposal. If my guess is correct, Turkey will build fleets and you will be outnumbered on the high seas. I think I got enough units in the North to stand off an attack and if worst comes to worst, the fleet will head that way. As far as the fleet in the south is concerned, in the Spring move it will head to Spain(sc), then it will go to W.Med or MAO depending on what England does (or doesn't do). Let me know what you want done with that fleet during Summer and Winter press and such will be done the following move. BTW, we have also loaded a newly developed martini-thrower and loaded the hull of every ship full of martini bottles for you and our use. Feel free to request as much as you need. The admiral has orders to give you everything you need. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Italy - world: England has, in one turn, promised not to attack any of his neighbors. Hmmmm..... I only hope that the inevitable stab is Austria. (WARSAW WARSAW WARSAW) He also gets to build 2 new armies (accordind to his press). Are they the Home Guard? Italy - Paris: As long as you don't attack me in the mean time, if this war looks like it is going badly, I think I will have to start ceding territory to you. This should keep you in the game to the end whereas if I fall, then you will also fall shortly after. I will let you know when to start moving in if needed. Of course, if things go well, we will be much stronger as an alliance and I will stay in the game. I figure that if Tukey is spiteful enough to throw away this chance then I can be spiteful right back and ruin his day. Be very careful on your English front. Italy - Turkey: Are you out of your mind? You want to spend a year going around a weaker, surrounded neighbor to get to a stronger and more difficult to attack player that has saved your ass in this game? I will cede it all to France if you help Austria, and then the Fr/Eng will stomp all over you two. Remember that. =============================================================================== That's all from this game. Cheers! Lord Valentine Referenced By Up