Diplomacy Zine -- EP #194 Chapter Seven From: Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com Date: Wed, 05 Sep 1990 18:03:38 +0000 Issue #194 of ELECTRONIC PROTOCOL: ************************************************************************ Words must have no relation to action - otherwise what kind of diplomacy is it? Words are one thing, actions another. Good words are a mask for concealment of bad deeds. Sincere diplomacy is no more possible than dry water or wooden iron. ************************************************************************ Chapter One contains: BLITZKRIEG, GETTYSBURG, RED STORM RISING, and PASSCHENDAELE And is published by daybell@aludra.usc.edu/Donald Daybell Chapter Two contains: DRAGONSLAYER, JACAL, MANHATTAN, VERSAILLES, DRESDEN, and KHAN And is published by tedward@cs.cornell.edu/Ted Fischer Chapter Three contains: MULHOUSE, DAWN PATROL, SNIKKEL-2, BERLIN, SNIKKEL-1, EL ALAMEIN, SQUALANE, UNGAWE, CAPTAIN CAVEMAN And is published by cwekx@htikub5.bitnet/Constantijn Wekx Chapter Four contains: NICKEL, OZARK, DEADLY DAGGERS, YORKTOWN, MONTREUIL-SUR-MER Chapter Five contains: ARCHANGEL, BORDEL, ERIS, MASADA, and YALTA And is published by bmers58!dgibbs@bnrgate/David Gibbs Chapter Six contains: TOKUGAWA, BERLIN WALL, HIROSHIMA, GENGHIS KHAN, SEA LION, VIOLENT PEACE And is published by sinhaa@mcmaster.ca/Anand Sinha ------------ Chapter Seven ------------ Summer '04 of the game GROUND ZERO (EP #47) (GM is Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com/Eric Klien Nothing happened. Fall '04 of the game GROUND ZERO (EP #47) (GM is Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com/Eric Klien France: 7103_3417@uwovax.uwo.ca/John Bryden Germany: Truls Arnegaard (trulsarn@ifi.uio.no) Russia: uunet!devcom!sma/Steve Adams Turkey: willis@trwind.ind.trw.com/Willis Marti Austria: att,decwrl,rutgers,uunet,etc}!bcr!pyuxd!dxp or att!bcr!pyuxd!dxp@sun.com/Dave Peak. There was one vote against the draw. Therefore I will replace France and Russia to keep the game moving well. Austria and Germany should send their builds ASAP, moves will be due next Sunday. All eliminated and removed players will be removed from this mailing list next turn unless they request otherwise. ENGLAND WAVES BYE-BYE! TURKEY WRITES OUT HIS WILL! AUS: <F Aegean Sea - Smyrna> F Apulia - Ionian Sea A Budapest - Rumania A Bulgaria S A Budapest - Rumania <A Constantinople S F Aegean Sea - Smyrna>[att] A Naples H (Shells Sevastapol with new long range guns) A Rome - Apulia A Venice H (Erects sea wall) A Vienna - Galicia ENG: <F Irish Sea - Liverpool> FRA: A Belgium H F English Channel S F London H F Gulf of Lyon - Marseilles F London H A Marseilles - Gascony A Picardy S A Belgium H F Tunis H F Western Med - Mid-Atlantic Ocean GER: A Edinburgh S A Yorkshire - Liverpool F Heligoland Bight S F North Sea H A Holland H A Munich H F North Sea S A Holland H A Yorkshire - Liverpool RUS: F Armenia S A Rumania - Ankara F Black Sea C A Rumania - Ankara A Livonia H F North Atlantic - Norwegian Sea F Norway H A Rumania - Ankara A Ukraine H TUR: <F Ankara - Constantinople>[***] <A Smyrna S F Ankara - Constantinople>[att] Press: England to all: Bye-bye, world. At least I lasted longer than Italy. France: Newspaper strike prevents press. Position Report Fall 1904 Game ZER AUS: F AEG A APU A BUL A CON A GAL F ION A NAP A RUM A VEN = 9 ENG: F IRI = 1 FRA: A BEL F ECH A GAS F LON F MAO F MAR A PIC F TUN = 8 GER: A EDI F HEL A HOL A LVP A MUN F NTS = 6 ITA: = 0 RUS: A ANK F ARM F BLA A LIV F NOR F NWS A UKR = 7 TUR: A SMY = 1 Supply Center Report Fall 1904 Game ZER AUS: BUD BUL CON GRE NAP ROM RUM SER TRI = 11( 9) ++ VEN VIE FRA: BEL BRE LON MAR PAR POR SPA TUN = 8( 8) GER: BER DEN EDI HOL KIE LVP MUN = 7( 6) + RUS: ANK MOS NOR SEV STP SWE WAR = 7( 7) TUR: SMY = 1( 1) Winter '04 of the game GROUND ZERO (EP #47) (GM is Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com/Eric Klien France: 7103_3417@uwovax.uwo.ca/John Bryden Germany: Truls Arnegaard (trulsarn@ifi.uio.no) Russia: uunet!devcom!sma/Steve Adams Turkey: willis@trwind.ind.trw.com/Willis Marti Austria: att,decwrl,rutgers,uunet,etc}!bcr!pyuxd!dxp or att!bcr!pyuxd!dxp@sun.com/Dave Peak. Germany builds A BER Austria builds A BUD, A VIE I already have orders from two people for Spring '06. Try to make the Sunday deadline (tommorrow) if possible. Spring '05 of the game GROUND ZERO (EP #47) (GM is Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com/Eric Klien France: 7103_3417@uwovax.uwo.ca/John Bryden Germany: Truls Arnegaard (trulsarn@ifi.uio.no) Russia: uunet!devcom!sma/Steve Adams Turkey: willis@trwind.ind.trw.com/Willis Marti Austria: att,decwrl,rutgers,uunet,etc}!bcr!pyuxd!dxp or att!bcr!pyuxd!dxp@sun.com/Dave Peak. Whoops! Got a year ahead of myself in my last message. Here are the Spring 1905 results, Fall 1905 is due next Sunday. ONLY ONE MOVE FAILS! AUS: F Aegean Sea S A Constantinople H A Apulia - Rome A Budapest - Rumania A Bulgaria S A Constantinople H A Constantinople H A Galicia S A Rumania - Ukraine F Ionian Sea - Eastern Med A Naples H (Shells Sevastapol with new longe range guns) A Rumania - Ukraine A Venice - Tyrolia A Vienna - Bohemia FRA: A Belgium H F English Channel S A Belgium H A Gascony - Marseilles F London H F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Western Med F Marseilles - Gulf of Lyon A Picardy - Burgundy F Tunis - Ionian Sea GER: A Berlin - Silesia A Edinburgh S A Liverpool H F Heligoland Bight - Denmark A Holland H A Liverpool S A Edinburgh H A Munich H F North Sea S A Holland H RUS: A Ankara S A Smyrna - Constantinople F Armenia - Sevastopol F Black Sea S A Smyrna - Constantinople A Livonia S A Ukraine - Warsaw F Norway - Sweden F Norwegian Sea - Norway A Ukraine - Warsaw TUR: <A Smyrna - Constantinople> (We will recover the capital at all costs!) Press: (Moscow - Tass) The Tsar is Aghast at the Offensive position that the Dual Monarchy has taken and calls on all Europeans to bring down the evil Emporer. Only what this threat has been removed can all peace loving Europeans live in harmony. The Tsar extends an offer of alliance to all powers who would have peace to move on the Dual Monarchy at once. He extends his heartfelt appolgy to the Sultan for the destruction wrought on Turkey, and will do everything to support him in his return to power in his own country! Position Report Spring 1905 Game ZER AUS: F AEG A BOH A BUL A CON F EME A GAL A NAP A ROM A RUM A TYR A UKR = 11 ENG: = 0 FRA: A BEL A BUR F ECH F GOL F ION F LON A MAR F WME = 8 GER: F DEN A EDI A HOL A LVP A MUN F NTS A SIL = 7 ITA: = 0 RUS: A ANK F BLA A LIV F NOR F SEV F SWE A WAR = 7 TUR: A SMY = 1 Summer '05 of the game GROUND ZERO (EP #47) (GM is Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com/Eric Klien Nothing happened. Fall '05 of the game GROUND ZERO (EP #47) (GM is Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com/Eric Klien France: 7103_3417@uwovax.uwo.ca/John Bryden Germany: Truls Arnegaard (trulsarn@ifi.uio.no) Russia: uunet!devcom!sma/Steve Adams Turkey: willis@trwind.ind.trw.com/Willis Marti Austria: att,decwrl,rutgers,uunet,etc}!bcr!pyuxd!dxp or att!bcr!pyuxd!dxp@sun.com/Dave Peak. There are no adjustments or retreats. Spring 1906 orders due Sunday. TINY TURKEY HOLDS OFF AUSTRIA! AUS: F Aegean Sea S A Constantinople - Smyrna <A Bohemia - Silesia> A Bulgaria - Greece <A Constantinople - Smyrna> F Eastern Med S A Constantinople - Smyrna <A Galicia S A Ukraine - Warsaw>[att] A Naples H A Rome H A Rumania H A Tyrolia H <A Ukraine - Warsaw> FRA: A Belgium H A Burgundy S A Munich H F English Channel S A Belgium H F Gulf of Lyon - Tyrrhenian Sea F Ionian Sea - Adriatic Sea F London H A Marseilles - Piedmont F Western Med - Tunis GER: F Denmark H (Drills for Oil) A Edinburgh S A Liverpool H A Holland H A Liverpool S A Edinburgh H A Munich H F North Sea S A Holland H <A Silesia - Galicia> RUS: A Ankara S A Smyrna - Constantinople F Black Sea S A Smyrna - Constantinople A Livonia - Moscow F Norway H F Sevastopol H F Sweden H A Warsaw H TUR: <A Smyrna - Constantinople> Press: Dateline: Sultan's Tent, Turkish Gov't in Exile:: (well, not really exile, but the baths in Smyrna are *terrible*. and those upstart Austrian sailors in my palace...) The Sultan is pleased to announce that after several hours meditation in the mobile harem, he is emerging for a fight to the death against the infidel Austrian invaders. While grateful for the help of the Russian Navy, the\ Sultan is determined to strike on his own and has launched a secret weapon at Venice! Meanwhile, the infantry has been sent to Constantinople to accept the Austrian surrender.GM # 47 GROUND ZERO France: Le Journal au jour de Paris. Today top secret cabinet documents were leaked to the press. Apparently, the Aristocracy and Nobility of France are placing great pressure on our new President. The complain that the proletariat are invading their country homes in Burgundy and Gascony. Furthermore, it seems that the Nobility are urging the president to invade Italy. Our Nobility and gentry seem eager to aquire new inexpensive villa's in the Italian Alps, which they feel will not be so overridden by the masses..... Yesterday, in Constantinople, agents of the exiled Sultan have assinated a member of the Imperial House of the Kaiser. ...... D'autre les nouvelles, le Premiere au Canada avons dit...... Position Report Fall 1905 Game ZER AUS: F AEG A BOH A CON F EME A GAL A GRE A NAP A ROM A RUM A TYR A UKR = 11 ENG: = 0 FRA: F ADR A BEL A BUR F ECH F LON A PIE F TUN F TYS = 8 GER: F DEN A EDI A HOL A LVP A MUN F NTS A SIL = 7 ITA: = 0 RUS: A ANK F BLA A MOS F NOR F SEV F SWE A WAR = 7 TUR: A SMY = 1 Supply Center Report Fall 1905 Game ZER AUS: BUD BUL CON GRE NAP ROM RUM SER TRI = 11(11) VEN VIE FRA: BEL BRE LON MAR PAR POR SPA TUN = 8( 8) GER: BER DEN EDI HOL KIE LVP MUN = 7( 7) RUS: ANK MOS NOR SEV STP SWE WAR = 7( 7) TUR: SMY = 1( 1) Spring '02 of the game HELM'S DEEP (EP #57) (GM is eric_s_klien@cup.portal.com/Eric Klien) Germany: CONNELLY@uinpla.npl.uiuc.edu/Jim Connelly Italy: fnd@beach.cis.ufl.edu/Frank Di Vincenzo France: bmers58!dgibbs@bnrgate/David Gibbs Russia: sybase!sean@sun.com/Sean Fitts England: sinhaa@mcmaster.ca/Anand Sinha Turkey: steveb@cs.utexas.edu/Steve Benz Austria: {att,decwrl,rutgers,uunet,etc}!bcr!pyuxd!dxp or uunet!bcr!pyuxd!dxp@sun.com/Dave Peak AUSTRIA AND RUSSIA DON'T GET ALONG! TURKS SNEAK BEHIND AUSTRIAN LINES! AUS: A Budapest S A Vienna - Galicia <F Greece S A Serbia - Bulgaria>[***] <A Serbia - Bulgaria> F Trieste - Adriatic Sea A Vienna - Galicia ENG: A Belgium S A Ruhr - Burgundy F London - English Channel F Liverpool - Irish Sea <F Norway S F Denmark - Sweden>[nso] F North Sea S F London - English Channel FRA: F Brest S A Picardy H <A Paris - Burgundy> A Picardy S A Paris - Burgundy F Portugal - Mid-Atlantic Ocean A Spain - Marseilles GER: A Berlin - Prussia F Denmark - Baltic Sea A Holland - Kiel <A Munich - Silesia> <A Ruhr - Burgundy> ITA: F Ionian Sea C A Tunis - Albania F Naples - Apulia A Piedmont - Venice A Tunis - Albania RUS: F Black Sea S A Constantinople - Bulgaria F Gulf of Bothnia - St. Petersburg(SC) <A Rumania - Serbia> <A Ukraine - Galicia> <A Warsaw - Silesia> TUR: F Aegean Sea S A Bulgaria - Greece F Ankara - Constantinople A Bulgaria - Greece A Constantinople - Bulgaria Position Report Spring 1902 Game HEL AUS: F ADR A BUD A GAL A SER = 4 ENG: A BEL F ECH F IRI F NOR F NTS = 5 FRA: F BRE F MAO A MAR A PAR A PIC = 5 GER: F BAL A KIE A MUN A PRU A RUH = 5 ITA: A ALB F APU F ION A VEN = 4 RUS: F BLA A RUM F STP A UKR A WAR = 5 TUR: F AEG A BUL F CON A GRE = 4 Press: Rome: Pope Franjesco I denied rumours of a Lepanto. "Lepanto? Isn't that what men wear on their legs? Or is it that new opera singer that everyone is raving about?" Tunis: The Italian army stationed in Tunis, were seen practicing their French phrases, such as "Oooh ma cherie! Combien pour vous couchez avec moi?", and "Je veux une boite du champagne et une chambre". Rumours that they were joining the French foreign legion, however, are not true. York, England: In a stunning development, Prime Minister Anand Sinha, pulled a great sword from a stone. Apparently, the old man calling himself Merlin had predicted that anyone who could remove the sword was "rightwise born King of all Britain". Merlin then predicted that by summer's end, the proper King of all Britain would be upon the throne. Spokesmen for Queen Victoria were not available for comment. Athens Alarmist --------------- "Cypriots Demand Cold Beer! Riot Ensues" Greek Cypriots today overthrew the English governorship, demanding, among other things, a stop to this "Guddam tepid beer." Dimetrius Yanakopolis, leader of the rebel cause declared the island the property of Greece and appointed himself temporary Governorship of the island. The Turkish minority on the island was somewhat taken aback by the sudden and violent change of their Greek cohabitants, were quick to ask for assistance from their homeland. While the Shah's initial response was one of restraint, the Ayatollah Joe Bob of the Reformed Fundamentalist Born-Again Orthodox Shiite Moslem Right-to-lifer Jihad demanded that the Turkish army immediately take steps to come to the aid of the Turkish community on the island. The Ayatollah exclaimed "Death to those who would impose the nasty Greek Orthodox Church! Death to those who would revolt just because they couldn't get their beer cold! Death to those who would claim to have invented the Baklava WHEN THEY KNOW IT WAS US WHO COOKED IT UP!" Shah Hassan, noting that the rule book says that you can't land on Cyprus without invading Greece... --- Christian Science Monitor ------------------------- "Russians still in Bathtub! Shah still smells bad!" Shah Hassan has made good on his promise not to bath until the Russians evacuate the Royal Bathtub. However he took the first steps toward a fresher scent today as he took his new flagship, the HMS Rubber Ducky from its port in Ankara on a cruise in the Sea of Marmara. Quipped the Shah, "I might just let the Tzar have my bathtub... I hear Sears has a new, larger, luxery model." "Joe Bob decrees `Line of Death'" Ayatollah Joe Bob, leader of the Conservative Reformed Fundamentalist Born-Again Orthodox Shiite Moslem Right-to-lifer Jihad decreed "Death will come to infidels -- particularly Catholic ones -- who advance into the sacred Seas of the Eastern Medeteranian." Many religious authorities have come to wonder about the Ayatollah's claims that the Prophet Mohammed once said of this body of water, "I like it. Is mine." When asked just how death would come for those who crossed west of Cyprus, the Ayatollah Joe Bob responded, "We will strike them all aquiver with our hairy underarms." [Warsaw] In an attempt to discourage the imperialistic Germans, the Warsaw defense force went on manuevers today just outside the city. When asked to comment on the fact that the Russia forces crossed over into German territory, Gereral Mayhem said, "We were using outdated maps, so sue me.". [Black Sea] The Russian speed boat team carried out their orders to assist Turkey in capturing Bulgaria. When it was pointed out that Turkey already occupied Bulgaria, Admiral Carparov replied, "We are always willing to assist any nation capture its own territory.". He later admited that he had always suspected that the Turks were a little confused. [Rumania] After discovering that the salt air was corroding the armor on their tanks, the Russian First Mechanized unit struck out for Serbia in an attempt to find safer haven. The Czar indicated that this should not mean war with Austria. London: Prime Minister Anand Sinha held a press conference today when it was learned that the Germans had been conspiring with the Russians all along. "We do not like being taken for fools.", he said. "The Germans will learn that they are nothing more than our puppets, and that we will tolerate no disobediance from them." In related news, he denied reports that a knight in shining armor was seen riding around near his residence. Fall '01 of the blind game BRUSILOV OFFENSIVE (EP #68) (GM is fnd@beach.cis.ufl.edu/Frank Di Vincenzo) Not received. Will look into this. Publisher comments: Quote is from Joseph Stalin, taken from the report of the House of representatives' committee on unamerican affairs, 1956, section B. Quotation provided by cwekx@htikub5.bitnet/Constantijn Wekx. We have started quite a few games recently and I will start publishing them in my next set of issues for this chapter. Our players are beginning to near 225. Hopefully, we will hit this number as the summer ends. We are developing a larger and larger group of dedicated gamers. Soon, we will have a lot of original material to publish in this zine as the list of our subscribers grows. Answers to quiz that was published in EP #192: Person one: Military service should be voluntary. (No draft) YES Government should not control radio, TV or the press. YES Repeal regulations on sex by consenting adults. YES Drugs laws do more harm than good. Repeal them. NO Let people immigrate and emmigrate freely. NO Farmers should farm without quotas or subsidies. YES People are better off with free trade than tariffs. YES Minimum wage laws eliminate jobs. Repeal them. NO End taxes. Pay for services voluntarily. NO Europeans & Japanese should pay for their own defense. YES Person two: Military service should be voluntary. (No draft) YES Government should not control radio, TV or the press. MAYBE Repeal regulations on sex by consenting adults. YES Drugs laws do more harm than good. Repeal them. YES Let people immigrate and emmigrate freely. MAYBE Farmers should farm without quotas or subsidies. YES People are better off with free trade than tariffs. YES Minimum wage laws eliminate jobs. Repeal them. NO End taxes. Pay for services voluntarily. YES Europeans & Japanese should pay for their own defense. YES Person three: yes yes yes yes yes yes yes no (8) no (9) yes Person four: Here are my answers to "The World's Shortest Political Quiz": MAYBE Military service should be optional (I favor it in times of major war if volunteers are not sufficient. Also, it should be voluntary but only as an alternative to some other national service - Peace Corps, VISTA, etc.) YES Government should not control tv, radio, or press (beyond issuing operator's licences. MAYBE Repeal regulations on sex by consenting adults (Only Maybe because this includes prostitution - it should be decriminalized but regulated for health and safety, which is the situation in Holland and Nevada. Also, sex between consenting adults in public should still be prohibited). MAYBE Drug laws do more harm than good (true for the casual user, not for the addict). Repeal them (no). MAYBE Let people emigrate and immigrate freely (Only maybe so that known crimnals and enemies of the countries into which they are attempting to enter are kept out). YES Farmers should farm without quotas or subsidies. YES People are better off with free trade than tarriffs. NO Minimum wage laws eliminate jobs. NO (I wish I could say yes, but there are too many selfish people) to eliminating taxes. YES Europeans and Japanese should pay for their own defense (The Saudis say they will). Person five: Military service should be voluntary. (No draft) Yes Government should not control radio, TV or the press. Yes Repeal regulations on sex by consenting adults. Yes Drugs laws do more harm than good. Repeal them. Yes Let people immigrate and emmigrate freely. No Farmers should farm without quotas or subsidies. No People are better off with free trade than tariffs. No Minimum wage laws eliminate jobs. Repeal them. No End taxes. Pay for services voluntarily. No Europeans & Japanese should pay for their own defense. Yes Person six: Military service should be voluntary. (No draft) Yes. Government should not control radio, TV or the press. Yes. Repeal regulations on sex by consenting adults. Yes. Drugs laws do more harm than good. Repeal them. Yes. Let people immigrate and emmigrate freely. Yes. Farmers should farm without quotas or subsidies. Yes. People are better off with free trade than tariffs. Yes. Minimum wage laws eliminate jobs. Repeal them. Yes. End taxes. Pay for services voluntarily. Yes. Europeans & Japanese should pay for their own defense. Yes. Comments: Note that I didn't vote since it would have altered the results considerably. I would have voted 10 Yeses as I am a true blue Libertarian. The biggest surprise in the voting is that nearly everyone voted for a minimum wage. If the government thinks everyone should earn $20000 a year, it seems pretty stupid to try to do this by forcing all employers to pay $20000. If an employer can only pay $19000, then the person can't get a job and then has to go on welfare which pays him the $20000. It would be much better if the government let him take the job that paid $19000 and then gave him $1000 a year in welfare. In summary this gives us: Yes = 20 Points, Maybe = 10 points, No = 0 points. Personal issues: YYYMYY = 110 YMYYYY = 110 YYYMYY = 110 NYYMYY = 90 NMYMNY = 60 ----------- = 480/6 = 80 Economic issues: YYYYNY = 100 YYYYNY = 100 NNNNNY = 20 NYNNNY = 40 YYYYYY = 120 ------------ = 380/6 = 63.33 This makes our average reader a Libertarian! Pretty wild. Actually, my vote would have mattered less than expected. Categories were: Left Liberal PI 100-60, EI 0-20 = 15 plus PI 100-80 and EI 40 = 4 plus PI 60, EI 0-20 = 3 Authoritarian PI 0-30, EI 0-30 = 16 plus PI 40, EI 0-20 = 3 plus EI 40, PI 0-20 = 3 Right Conservative PI 0-30, EI 70-100 = 16 plus PI 0-20, EI 60 = 3 plus PI 40, EI 80-100 = 3 Libertarian PI 80-100, EI 60-100 = 15 plus PI 70, EI 70-100 = 4 plus PI 60, EI 80-100 = 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- = 22 * 4 = 88 Centrist PI 40-60, EI 40-60 = 9 plus EI 30, EI 50 = 1 plus EI 50, PI 70 and PI 30 = 2 plus EI 70, PI 50 = 1 ---------------------------------------------------------- = 88 + 13 = 101 Libertarian/Left Liberal = PI 80-100, EI 50 = 2 Libertarian/Centrist = PI 70, EI 60 and PI 60, EI 70 = 2 Left Liberal/Authoritarian = PI 50, EI 0-20 = 2 Left Liberal/Centrist = PI 70, EI 40 and PI 60, EI 30 = 2 Right Conservative/Authoritarian = PI 0-20, EI 50 = 2 Right Conserative/Libertarian = PI 50, EI 90-100 = 2 Centrist/Authoritarian = PI 40, EI 30 and PI 30, EI 40 = 2 Centrist/Right Conservative = PI 30, EI 60 and PI 40, EI 70 = 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- = 101 + 2*8 = 117 Left Liberal/Libertarian/Centrist = PI 80, EI 50 = 1 Left Liberal/Authoritarian/Centrist = PI 50, EI 20 = 1 Right Conservative/Libertarian/Centrist = PI 50, EI 80 = 1 Right Conservative/Authoritarian/Centrist = PI 20, EI 50 = 1 ---------------------------------------------------------- = 117 + 4 = 121 0-100 = 11 combinations so 11 * 11 = 121, I think I got it right! I added up the positions to make sure I didn't goof when turning a simple chart into the description of above. The Centrist position was smaller than the rest. Note that there are 17 possible categories. ****************************************************************************** To join in the fun, send your name, home address, home and work phone numbers, and country preferences to Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com. ****************************************************************************** Up