Diplomacy Zine -- Chapter Eight EP #251

From: Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com

Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1991 04:48:16 +0000

Issue #251 of ELECTRONIC PROTOCOL:

*************************************************************************
      "I got some used paint - it was in the shape of a house."
*************************************************************************

Chapter One contains:

BAGHDAD, BLITZKRIEG II, KING'S GAMBIT, PASSCHENDAELE,
DRAGONS, BLACK OCTOBER, OPERATION DESERT STORM, THE SOMME

And is published by uunet!cti1!rlister or rlister@cti.com/Russ Lister

Chapter Two contains:

BEREZINA, PORTNOY, JUTLAND, TIBERIUS, MARENGO, PARIS, SPARROW, SNORRI
AJAX, DIEN, FONTENOY, AGINCOURT

And is published by loeb@geocub.greco-prog.fr/Daniel E. Loeb

Chapter Three contains:

SQUALANE, BRUSILOV OFFENSIVE II, CULLODEN, GANDALF'S REVENGE,
GOODBYE BLUE SKY, MASTERS OF DECEIT, PANDORA, NOW AND ZEN

And is published by mad-2@kub.nl/Constantijn Wekx

Chapter Four contains:

DEADLY DAGGERS, MONTREUIL-SUR-MER, FIRE WHEN READY, THUNDERDOME,
BEREZINA, FONTENOY

And needs a publisher.

Chapter Five contains:

YALTA, AJAX

And needs a publisher.

Chapter Six contains:

BERLIN WALL, HIROSHIMA, GENGHIS KHAN, SEA LION, VIOLENT PEACE, GIBRALTAR

And is published by barry@brahms.udel.edu/Barry Fausnaugh.

Chapter Seven contains:

TIBERIUS, BETELGEUSE, IRON CROSS, TEUNISGEK, RIYADH'S RECKONING

And needs a publisher.

Chapter Eight contains:

TIBERIUS, BETELGEUSE, IRON CROSS, GUERNICA, TEUNISGEK, WOLF BLITZER,
THE COMMANDERS

-------------
Chapter Eight
-------------

Table of Contents:

Two letters from shr@clemson.clemson.edu/Steve Robinson and a response
from me.
Letter from Michael Norrish <NORRISH@ST1.vuw.ac.nz> and my response.
Letter from Mark Nelson and my response.
GIMME THREE STEPS ISSUE TWO
GIMME THREE STEPS ISSUE THREE
GIMME THREE STEPS ISSUE FOUR
----

Letter from shr@clemson.clemson.edu/Steve Robinson:

This is my response to something I saw in the latest EP.

> Issue #237 of ELECTRONIC PROTOCOL:

> From: loeb@nestor.greco-prog.fr (Daniel Loeb)
>
> "POKER PROGRAMMING PROJECT"     Diplomacy Programming Project
> March 26, 1991                  Daniel Loeb
>
>                          We believe that games of imperfect information
> and those involving both chance and skill are more useful for certain
> studies in Artificial intelligence than games of pure skill and perfect
> information - without trying to belittle the intellectual challenge,
> the depth and dreadth of the efforts needed for programming games in the
> latter category, such as Chess or Go. [Of course, Diplomacy is a game
> of imperfect information with luck and skill, despite its lack of
> dice or cards.                               ]

Diplomacy is a game of perfect information.  The set of possible
combinations of orders on a given turn is *immense* but finite.  The
possible orders are deterministic rather than probabilistic.  At any
given point in a game, a chess player may choose any one of a number
(around 38 on the average in the mid-game) of the moves available to
him.  His choice may seem sensible or random, but the list he chooses
from is determined from the position.  The choices which can be made by
seven Diplomacy players at a given point in a game run into *HUGE*
numbers, but they could be listed one by one, given sufficient time.
This does not of course include joke orders such as "F Sev thumbs nose
at mangy Turk." Given the huge number of possible transitions from one
game state to the next, Diplomacy may well *seem* like a game of
imperfect information while in fact it is not.  Also, I'm not refering
to deals, alliances, etc., but only to the tactical part (orders to
the fleets and armies and draw and concession proposals and votes).

Letter from shr@clemson.clemson.edu/Steve Robinson:

Subject: Tactics articles in EP

Hey Eric:
How about more tactics articles in EP such as the ones in EP#224 which
was sent out 1/27/91?  These were The Lisbon Leapfrog by Mark Berch
which was reprinted from DW#60, and Instant Diplomacy by Lee A.
Kendter, Sr. .  These were good, and more like them would be welcome.
                                 Steve

My response:

I need more scribes.

Letter from Michael Norrish <NORRISH@ST1.vuw.ac.nz>

I like the suggestion that the volume of stuff actually published be reduced.
This seems sensible, although it does mean that there have to be criteria for
deciding which games are 'interesting' and which are not. Personally, I don't
really have the time to observe any games at all so I just restrict myself to
the range of interesting things that you put into Chapter 7. Obviously the
players would like to see this stuff, but the rest of the world is not so
likely to want it. If someone really does want to observe a game, then s/he
can ask the GM directly for game reports.

Michael

My response:

I am moving towards having most of my games on Judge where a person can
easily ask to be added to the mailing list.  I only post what turn these
games are up to as I can count on Judge on storing the information that
I need for endgame reports.  I can also count on Judge on letting me
know instantaneously how a game is doing and I can count on Judge on not
dropping out as a GM.  My games that are completely human moderated
are less reliable so I like to be able to watch them by checking out
published chapters.  Note that I love it when players send me e-mail
notifying me that a game is having problems.  If all players did this,
I wouldn't need to publish any games.

Letter from AMT5MAN@cms1.ucs.leeds.ac.uk/Mark Nelson

Dear Eric,
         I would always prefer to play under a good human GM rather
than JUDGE, although I suppose one would have no way of knowing if the
`good' human GM was in fact just using JUDGE without telling one!

I don't think that getting EP readers to vote for Dave McCrumb in
the Melinda Holley Award would show the email hobby in a good light,
in fact it would only increase tensions between certain sections of the
postal hobby and certain sections of the email hobby.  In fact it might
not be a good idea to consider a different set of awards for the email
hobby.  Why not have our own awards for, say, Best Human GM, Best Player,
Best Original Article etc.

Mark.

My response:

The Melinda Holley award was considered a joke award by David McCrumb
so he wanted me to promote him for it.  Don't worry, people in my e-
mail zine don't vote for postal stuff.  I mentioned him as a favor
and note he is a postal publisher, not an e-mail publisher.  As to
our own awards, it's an idea.

Eric Klien

And here was Mark Nelson's response:

> The Melinda Holley award was considered a joke award by David McCrumb
> so he wanted me to promote him for it.  Don't worry, people in my e-
> mail zine don't vote for postal stuff.  I mentioned him as a favor
> and note he is a postal publisher, not an e-mail publisher.  As to
> our own awards, it's an idea.
>
>                                                            Eric Klien

Yes, the MH Award is a joke award.  DO we want to encourage quantity
participtation in games?  No, it only leads to disaster when they drop
out.  I think a set of email awards is the way forward.  Those email
people who get snail mail zines can still vote in those awards but for
most email fans snail mail awards carry no weight.

Mark

Here's an old issue of GTS that I forgot to post:

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*************************************************************************

GIMME THREE STEPS ISSUE TWO (24-6-91)

GIMME THREE STEPS is a British email fanzine (perhapes the first one!)
produced by Mark Nelson (amt5man@uk.ac.leeds.cms1) and distributed
by himself and through Eric Klien's ELECTRONIC PROTOCOL.  It exists
to run games (mainly diplomacy variants and orphans) and to discuss
hobby/games related matters.

It currently runs one game of diplomacy and one game of Gunboat.

WAITING LISTS   WAITING LISTS   WAITING LISTS   WAITING LISTS

(1) DOWNFALL.  This is a variant based upon J.R.R Tolkien's Lord of The
               Rings and traditional is associated with reams of
               Press.  There are seven players, each playing one of
               the major powers described in the books.  First designed
               in 1974 the game has undergone countless revisions and
               has established itself as a classic variant design.

However, I do not intend spedning time retyping 7 pages
               of rules.  If you want to play mail me your snail mail
               address and I'll post you the rules.

(2) ANOTHER VARIANT...I will be running the rules for a variant next
    issue, but in order to keep suspense high I will keep it a secret!

STANDBY PLAYERS are always wanted.  Please sign up on the Standby list!

*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************

LET THE PEOPLE BE HEARD (A LETTER COLUMN)

From: jacquesc@ca.umontreal.mathcn (Jacques Carette )

I am writing for jjcarett@watami.waterloo.edu

This is my account, that a friend had borrowed for the period of
Sep 90-Apr 91, but he is no longer in Waterloo, and so does not
have access to it anymore.  However, I play diplomacy too, so if you
don't mind, I could just replace him as Austria.

Or has a new player been found already?

Jacques

MARK:  NO, I wasn't even aware that there might be player-problem.
       Many thanks for offering to take over the position.  If this were
       a snail mail zine I'd offer you a free issue, not really possible
       with email zines!

=========================================================================
From: Graham Wilson <gw@edu.toronto.sickkids>    21/6/91
Subject: Black October SPRING 06 Results
To: AMT5MAN@uk.ac.leeds.ucs.cms1,
 lsuc!utgpu!cms1.ucs.leeds.ac.uk!AMT5MAN@uk.ac.nsfnet-relay,
 lsuc!utgpu!uk.ac.leeds.cms1!AMT5MAN@uk.ac.nsfnet-relay

Mark:

Greetings. Your name is familiar - Dip World me thinks.  You write
articles?

Note that this is being sent by 3 diff routes.  Please tell me which ones
arrive.

MARK:  Yes I've written a number of articles for DIPLOMACY WORLD.  Three
       Tolkien variants (Hardbop Downfall & Middle Earth IX/X), one
       strategy article (on an interesting end-game position) and one
       article on 'fannishness' and overseas zines.  Incidentally,  any
       North American reading this who doesn't see DW might want to
       consider getting it.  Whilst it is a little stuffy and, well, dull
       it does contain a wealth of material on diplomacy.  Incidentally
       would anyone fancy a game of MIDDLE EART IX?  The rules were
       printed in the last issue of DW and so are easy to obtain.

DIPLOMACY WORLD costs $10 for four issues in the States ($12 for
       first class mail and $15 to Canada) from DAVID HOOD, 104-F
       Terrace Drive, CARY. NC 27511 USA (Actually David has just moved
       but I don't have his new address to hand...this one will be Ok
       so as mail is being forwarded.)
=========================================================================

From: John Murphy <MURPHYJOH@edu.urich.urvax>

Oh, I forgot to include this in the last message... if the english zine
moves faster than EP tends to, I shall likely end up in some of those games.
so if you need a player to fill a game occasionally, let me know.

Also, Black october had an EP # of 70, but no other numbers that i was
aware of.
-john

MARK: Thanks for the help.  I've put you on the mailing list.

*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************

BLACK OCTOBER  1990???   PRE-AUTUMN 1906
                   GM-Mark Nelson (amt5man@uk.ac.leeds.cms1)

Graham Wilson has mailed me a copy of the Spring 1906 adjutication
which I did not know about.  Hopefully the players can take it from here!

Players:
  ITALY--> bereolos@cb.ecn.purdue.edu  (Peter J Bereolos)
  FRANCE-> seningen@serval.sps.mot.com
  TURKEY-> slensk@asc.upenn.edu
  ENGLAND->gw@sickkids.toronto.edu      (Graham Wilson)
  AUSTRIA->jjcarett@watami.waterloo.edu   (1)
  GERMANY->Ted_Belding@ub.cc.umich.edu

(1) New Austrian player is JACQUESC@CA.UMONTREAL.MATHCN

Deadline: Spring 06 due Saturday 6th July 1991

This is longer than normal, but I will be away from 23/6/91 for two
  weeks (one playing Bridge and one going to a conferrence).
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------

RETREAT(A)
Turkey: A War  -> Mos FAIL(E) France:  F Nap  -> Apu     -ok
        A Ank  -> Sev    -ok           F WMed -> Tun     -ok
        A Bul  -> Ser    -ok           F TyrS S WMed-Tun -ok
        F Gre  -> Alb    -ok           F Mar  -> GoLy    -ok
        F IonS -> AdrS   -ok           A Tus  -> Ven     -ok
        F BlaS C Ank-Sev -ok           A Pie  S Tus-Ven  -ok
        F Smy  -> AegS   -ok           A Rom  S Tus-Ven  -ok
        A Con  -> Bul    -ok           A Bur  -> Bel     -ok
        A Rum  S Bul-Ser -ok           F Bel  -> EChn    -ok

Germany:F HelB HOLDS     -ok  England: A StP  -> Mos     FAIL(E)
        A Mun  -> Ber    -ok           F BarS -> Nwy     -ok
        A Ruh  -> Mun    -ok           F NwgS -> NthS    -ok
        A Kie  S Mun-Ber -ok           F Lon S NwgS-NthS -ok
                                       F Den S NwgS-NthS -ok
Italy:  A Ven HOLDS RETREAT(F)         F BalS S Den-Den  -ok

Austria:A Pru  -> War    -ok
        A Sil  S Pru-War -ok
        A Boh  -> Gal    -ok
        A Vie  -> Bud    -ok
        A Tri  S Vie-Bud -ok

Italy army in venice retreats to Tyrolia
Turkey army in wawsaw retreats to Ukraine

::--> Data.
number in parenthesis under #Centers stands for: the number of centers
   	the nation owned last year.

Nation:|#Centers|      Centers          |        Positions              |
-------|--------|-----------------------|-------------------------------|
Austria| 5  (5) | Ber,Bud               | A Bud,Gal,Sil,Tri,War         |
       |        | Ser,Tri,Vie           |                               |
-------|--------|-----------------------|-------------------------------|
England| 6  (6) | Den,Edi,Lon,Lvp,Nwy   | A StP                         |
       |        | StP                   | F BalS,Den,Lon,NthS,Nwy       |
-------|--------|-----------------------|-------------------------------|
France | 9  (10)| Bel,Bre,Mar,Nap,Par   | A Bel,Pie,Rom,Ven             |
       |        | Por,Rom,Spa,Tun       | F Apu,EChn,GoLy,Tun,TyrS      |
-------|--------|-----------------------|-------------------------------|
Germany| 4  (5) | Hol,Kie,Mun,Swe       | A Ber,Kie,Mun                 |
       |        | 			| F HelB                        |
-------|--------|-----------------------|-------------------------------|
Italy  | 1  (0) | Ven                   | A ??[Ven]??                   |
-------|--------|-----------------------|-------------------------------|
Turkey | 9  (8) | Ank,Bul,Con,Gre,Mos   | A Sev,Ser,Bul,Rum,??[War]?    |
       |        | Rum,Sev,Smy,War       | F AegS,AdrS,Alb,BlaS          |
-------+--------+-----------------------+-------------------------------+

*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************

GAME 108 "Mother of All Battles"  GUNBOAT 1991???  SEASON???

Eric mailed me a list of players but didn't say if the game was an
orphan which had started or an orphan which was pre-Sp 1901...I need
more information before I can start this game!

For details concerning when the next issue appears see the dip game.

************************************************************************
*************************************************************************
EMAIL: AMT5MAN@UK.AC.LEEDS.CMS1
HOME :  21 Cecil Mount, Armely, Leeds, WEST RIDING. LS12 2AP ENGLAND
WORK : Department of Mathematics, The Univeristy, Leeds, WESR RIDING,
      ENGLAND. LS2 9JY

PUBLISHER: "The Mouth of Sauron" (snail mail diplomacy/sf zine),
           "Bridge" (email Bridge zine) amongst others...
*************************************************************************

Here's another old issue of GTS that I forgot to post:

GIMME THREE STEPS ISSUE THREE (13-7-91)

It currently runs one game of diplomacy and one game of Gunboat.
Since the players in these games have been very apathetic I am going
to find replacement players and if they don't get their act together I
am going to kick them out of the game!

WAITING LISTS   WAITING LISTS   WAITING LISTS   WAITING LISTS

However, I do not intend spedning time retyping 7 pages
               of rules.  If you want to play mail me your snail mail
               address and I'll post you the rules.

PLAYERS: Michael Norrish (New Zealand)  SIX MORE WANTED

(2) ANOTHER VARIANT...I will be running the rules for a variant next
    issue, but in order to keep suspense high I will keep it a secret!
    Maybe by next issue I will have found time to type up the rules..

STANDBY PLAYERS are always wanted.  Please sign up on the Standby list!

DA! DA! DA!   THE EDITORIAL   THE EDITORIAL   DA! DA! DA!
     DA! DA! DA!   THE EDITORIAL   THE EDITORIAL   DA! DA! DA!

July and August are busy months for me.  I can't promise any fixed
deadlines, games will get adjuticated when I get time which means if
things are going to run smoothly you need to mail orders in on time!
The situation is this:  July 19th-22nd MANORCON 1991 (the best UK dip
convention), 23rd July-3 August (working in Manchester for my industrial
sponser...I'll be back at the weekends to adjuticate games), 4th August
to 11 August U-25 Bridge Camp (playing Bridge for one week!), then one
week of normality followed by two more in Manchester.  Games can still
run but you need to GET YOUR ORDERS IN!!!

*************************************************************************
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LET THE PEOPLE BE HEARD (A LETTER COLUMN)

=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 91 13:25:34 +1200
From: Michael Norrish <norrish@nz.ac.vuw.rata>

I find it interesting that the two diplomacy worlds do
not seem to interact that much. Obviously, you, Eric Klien, Per
Westling and I have e-mail accounts and have a foot in both camps as
it were, but are there many others? Certainly, I don't know of any
others in New Zealand, and when I wrote with a similar question to
John Cain @ Victoriana, the only response I got was something from
Per. Certainly, if the situation is as I see it, with quite isolated
setups, then it is really only to the hobby's loss as a whole. And
although Eric might continue to espouse e-mail, (and Judge), as the
way of the future, it risks leaving behind all those people who don't
have quite the same access to these things as others.

MARK:  Surely it isn't that suprising?  After all who has access to
       email?  Students with free access at University, academic staff
        with free access at University, people whose work has email
       (often entailing them to free email) and a very small number
       of people who pay for email usage.  But just as access and
       use of computers changed from predominantly academic only in the
       1970's to virtually anyone who wanted it in the 1980's so over
       the next 10-15 years  I think we will see an increase in the
       range of people who use email.  30-40 years in the future nearly
       100% of all 'postal' games will be'email' games and there will
       be NO snail mail hobby.

Incidentally, perhaps you would like to become the WHOS WHERE
       CUSTODIAN?  I see this person keeping a list of email addresses
       for those people who are active in the snail mail hobby and have
       email.  As well as those you mention I can add the following:
       Tom Nash (USA), Jeff McKee (USA), Stuart Dagger (UK) &
       Malcolm Smith (Norway...but he's a Brit).
=========================================================================

Date: 12 July 1991.
FROM: MALCOLM.SMITH@NO.ALCATEL

MALC
> I wrote in one of the latest issues of BR (for latest read; post 19th C)
> that I think that the postal Diplomacy Hobby is so inwardly looking
> and superior that...(blah blah blah).

>   Anyway, what difference does it all make?  BNs, Polls, it's all navel gazing
> gazing.

Mark:  I don't know, I like reading details of all games to see who
       was around, how they played and what they were doing.  Puts some
       kindf of historical persepctive onto the hobby.

> Also I think that e-mail players play different to stamp and envelope
> types.  And who is doin to gather the Stats for the thousands of games
> have have gone on before?

Mark:  Well the US BNC has all the US details.  SOmetime in the future
       when the BNC is an email person an email data base will be
       produced.  It won't require that much work because data-scanners
       will have improved so much that all he will have to do is to
       spend his time scanning back issues of EVERYTHING...

> As far as I'm concerned stamp and envelope stuff has enjoyed it's peak -
> the day will come when m,any players will have machies at home connected
> to e-mail (and not just at work) and then will the e-mail magazines'
> flourish.

Mark:  Yes, perhapes in 10-15 years time?  I make the comparison with
       the increase in access to the computers between the 70's and 80's.
       Who had access to computers in the 1970's?  Just academics and
       some people at speial work-places.  Who has access to decent
       computing power now?  Almost anyone who wants it!

*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************

BLACK OCTOBER  1990???   PRE-AUTUMN 1906
                   GM-Mark Nelson (amt5man@uk.ac.leeds.cms1)

Players:
  ITALY--> bereolos@cb.ecn.purdue.edu  (Peter J Bereolos)
  FRANCE-> seningen@serval.sps.mot.com
  TURKEY-> slensk@asc.upenn.edu         (Joe Lenski)
  ENGLAND->gw@sickkids.toronto.edu      (Graham Wilson)
  AUSTRIA->jjcarett@watami.waterloo.edu   (1)
  GERMANY->

(1) New Austrian player is JACQUESC@CA.UMONTREAL.MATHCN
(2) Ted Belding has dropped out.  A new replacement player is being
    searched for.

Deadline: 26th July (See above for explanation)...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Austria:A Pru  -> War    -ok
        A Sil  S Pru-War -ok
        A Boh  -> Gal    -ok
        A Vie  -> Bud    -ok
        A Tri  S Vie-Bud -ok

Italy army in venice retreats to Tyrolia
Turkey army in wawsaw retreats to Ukraine

::--> Data.
number in parenthesis under #Centers stands for: the number of centers
   	the nation owned last year.

*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************

GAME 108 "Mother of All Battles"  GUNBOAT 1991???  NO-PRESS GAME
                         PRE-SPRING 1901

I have a list of players.  If you don't mail me in orders before
THURSDAY 18th JULY I will replace you.  Otherways I will adjuticate
when I have a complete set of orders.

DEADLINE:  18th July/whenever I have a complete set of orders
************************************************************************
*************************************************************************
EMAIL: AMT5MAN@UK.AC.LEEDS.CMS1
HOME :  21 Cecil Mount, Armely, Leeds, WEST RIDING. LS12 2AP ENGLAND
WORK : Department of Mathematics, The Univeristy, Leeds, WESR RIDING,
      ENGLAND. LS2 9JY

PUBLISHER: "The Mouth of Sauron" (snail mail diplomacy/sf zine),
           "Bridge" (email Bridge zine) amongst others...
*************************************************************************

Here's another old issue of GTS that I forgot to post:

*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************

GIMME THREE STEPS ISSUE FOUR  (13-7-91)

It currently runs one game of diplomacy and one game of Gunboat.

WAITING LISTS   WAITING LISTS   WAITING LISTS   WAITING LISTS

However, I do not intend spedning time retyping 7 pages
               of rules.  If you want to play mail me your snail mail
               address and I'll post you the rules.

PLAYERS: Michael Norrish (New Zealand)  SIX MORE WANTED

STANDBY PLAYERS are always wanted.  Please sign up on the Standby list!

DA! DA! DA!   THE EDITORIAL   THE EDITORIAL   DA! DA! DA!
     DA! DA! DA!   THE EDITORIAL   THE EDITORIAL   DA! DA! DA!

THE GAME OF DIPLOMACY

This is a hardback book written by UK publisher  Richard Sharp and
published in 1977.  It is one of only two books published on diplomacy.
It's been out-of-print since about 1978 but Richard has recently
started to sell photocopies of it.  In the States you can get copies from
Fred C.Davis Jnr (if anyone is interested I'll dig out his address).
But. is it any good?  (Of course, with it being 1/2 of all books
published on diplomacy you should own a copy anyway.)

GoD is over-rated as a texbook on play, it is too ideosynchratic
and contains too material on postal diplomacy.  As a text book  on the
play of diplomacy I do not rate it too highly.  It IS entertaining
reading.  Similiar problems apply   to Rod Walkers book on diplomacy
(I can't recall the title).  For the complete novice there is no
ideal introduction to diplomacy, the best I have seen is Bruce Linsey's
SUPERNOVA package although I am unsure if Brux still runs this.
*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************

LET THE PEOPLE BE HEARD (A LETTER COLUMN)

Mark:  This is some material from correspondence with US Hobbyist
       Jeff McKee

> Mark,
>   Yes, I played in a Dip game with Iain at last year's World DipCon.  If you
> have old issues of BTDT you may have read what I wrote about another game,
> and then Iain came back with "If I knew then that you could write so much
> boring drivel, I'd have never thrown that game to you."  R/A/I stalemated
> E/F and demanded a five-way draw.  For a tournament that would be suicidal
> for all five parties involved, so I refused and told the whole map I'd
> rather attack France (and did).  Eventually Austria joined me and R/I/F
> were all tired of the game and decided to choose a winner between A/E.
> Lucky me. (grin)

MN Ah yes.  American Tournament Rating Systems are known are being
   utterly worthless and to have no merit.  When I goto an American
   convention (sometime, not now...not next year but sometime...) you
   will find me in the bar despensing advice and comments; you won't
   find me wasting my time pushing silly plastic pieces around a
   coloured map of Europe!  No Sir.

>   You speak of American tournament scoring systems being second-rate.  No,
> this isn't American defensiveness coming, because I agree with you totally.
> I've probably wasted more space in my zine talking about improving scoring
> systems than any other topic.  On the other hand, I've yet to garnish
> significant approval for any alternative systems.  Perhaps you could send me
> some details on a typical British tournament scoring system.

MN The main difference between British and American Tournament Rating
   Systems stems from a difference in philosophy in rating draws.
   The majority of US rating systems are based on the Calhamerian
   Concept that n-way draws are intrinsically better than n+1
   draws.  Furthermore, many of them go on to say that 5-way draws and
   bigger are `pointless' and a waste of everybodys time!  Sometimes
   these rating systems then have silly rules which sometimes ensures
   that it is better to throw a game and come second than to draw in a
   large-way ending.

The tournament rating systems that I know most about is the one used
at ManorCon.  Here the rating system ensures that a WIN always scores
better than any draw which in turn scores better than any PLACE.
There is no incentive to throw the game.  There is no incentive to agree
to a draw which does not include you (or at least there would not be,
this year I believe that all draws are DIAS).  Players in a draw
are differentiated by a rating factor which is based on the number of
centers there have (the actual system used is a little complicated
but there is no reason why you just couldn't use the number of sc at
the end of the game).  The more sc you have, the more points you
score!  The actual system used also takes into account the number of
sc your rivals have.  So the players on 12 in a 12-11-11-1 will
score slightly less than the player in a 12-6-6-6-4 draw.

There are two essential different philisophies involved.  Points based
on number of players in a draw or on scs in a draw.  I prefer sc
because the more scs you have the more close you are to winning the game.
I also consider it unrealistic that player can get better ratings by
losing centers.

Another difference is that UK tounaments have fewer rounds.  At
ManorCon there are only two rounds.  So another difference is that
whilst the majority of US tournaments are based on either an average
over games played or on the best 2/3 results ManorCon is based on your
best single result.  Again  I prefer this approach.  It prevents
players ganging up on the leaders so cross-tournament gaming can not
occur.  Also if only 1 player scores an 18 center win then I think
he should win the tournament regardless of other factors.

>   To get defensive, on the other hand, would be to mention that five-way
> draw I might have wound up with at DipCon.  I object to five-way draws on
> general principles (what an insult for the two eliminated, and for what?),
> and I did eventually win the game by objecting to a five-way (certainly that
> carries some merit in a British scoring system!).  I would do the same again
> because to me, there's so little risk involved in giving up a five-way draw
> for a mere survival.

MN this is not a matter of ratings but of playing style.  There is
   nothing wrong in objecting to a large draw and playing on if in
   polaying on you think you have better chances of winning the game.
   The credit for a 5-way draw in ManorCon would depend on the number
   of centers you own.

Of course, objecting to 5-way draws on general principles is silly.
   They can araise naturally ie 2 2-way alliances stalemate each other
   with a 5th player occupying a critical centre (often Tun or Mun).

>   A couple of people have generated some interest in British Dip tournaments
> over here, but we know so little about how they actually work.  My
> impressions (however ground in fallacy they may be) is that people in the UK
> take Dip tournaments more seriously, have more intense games, and tend to
> enjoy themselves more off the board than Americans.

MN  Ha!  Matt McVeigh went to DipCon in 1989 and wrote an amusing
   article on how Americans play Tournament Dip, he said that they
   take the games much more seriously; a review reflected in the
   comments of those who went to WDCII.  There is a big difference in
   convention styles.  US cons are more devoted to the playing of dip
   tournaments and have less emphasis on socialising.  In the UK
   whilst many people may play in tournaments there are just as many
   who go for the social side; a large number of non-tournament games
   are held.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 91 09:20:23 +1200
From: Michael Norrish <norrish@nz.ac.vuw.rata>

I would be quite happy to maintain the Where-Is 'database' that you
suggest. I don't have a database program as such, but I can probably maintain
the list just through emacs and the like, (or I could write a program
to do it; but hey, let's get real here; I haven't got that sort of
time).
Michael.

*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************

BLACK OCTOBER  1990???   PRE-AUTUMN 1906
                   GM-Mark Nelson (amt5man@uk.ac.leeds.cms1)

(1) New Austrian player is JACQUESC@CA.UMONTREAL.MATHCN
(2) The new German player is Avery Ray Colter avery@com.netcom

Deadline: 26th July (See above for explanation)...
I HAVE ORDERS FROM EVERYBODY except one player.  That one player is in
danger of being replaced.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Austria:A Pru  -> War    -ok
        A Sil  S Pru-War -ok
        A Boh  -> Gal    -ok
        A Vie  -> Bud    -ok
        A Tri  S Vie-Bud -ok

Italy army in venice retreats to Tyrolia
Turkey army in wawsaw retreats to Ukraine

::--> Data.
number in parenthesis under #Centers stands for: the number of centers
   	the nation owned last year.

*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************

MOTHER OF ALL BATTLES (Gunboat 1991??rb32)    SPRING 1901

FRANCE:                            ITALY:
A(mar)-SPA                        A(ven)-TYR
F(bre)-MAO                        A(ROM)-ven  FAILS
A(PAR)-bur FAILS                  F(nap)-ION

RUSSIA
F stp - GOB
F SEV - bla
A MOS - sev
A war - UKR

GERMANY                         TURKEY
F kie - DEN                      A(con)-BUL
A ber - KIE                      A(smy)-CON
A MUN - bur FAILS                F(ANK)-bla

AUSTRIA                           ENGLAND
A vie --> GAL                     F(lon)-ENC
A bud --> SER                     F(edi)-NTH
F TRI --> ven FAILS               A(lpl)-WAL

PRESS   PRESS   PRESS   PRESS   PRESS   PRESS   PRESS   PRESS   PRESS

GM-ALL: (1) I'm using the ROHAN notation (named after an early US zine
            which first used it) where the final location of a unit is
            given in CAPITALS and attempted moves/original location is
            given in small letters.

(2) Moves  which failed are straightforward.  FA(Par)/GA(Mun),
            AF(Tri)/IA(Rom), RF(Sev)/TF(Ank) all bounced each other.
            Then RF(Sev)/RA(Mos) bounced.

(3) Somebody has told me that this game is a PRESS game so from
            next turn I will except Press.  I won't accept Black Press,
            unless this was in the original rules?

(4) Please submitt your unit orders in the order I have listed
            the units above.  This will make it easier for me to (i)
            check your orders for mistakes and (b) adjuticate.  Also,
            it saves time if you give all province abbreviations in small
            letters.

DEADLINE   DEADLINE   DEADLINE   DEADLINE   DEADLINE   DEADLINE

As I've said in the editorial I am very busy at present.  The deadline
is FRIDAY 26th JULY.  I will be back in Leeds on Saturday the 27th and
want to be able to adjutciate then as I will be away for the next week.

As it is Sp 1901 there is little reason why you shouldn't be able
to return a set of orders on the same day that you  read this.

I'm going to try and run this game so we complete a game year every
two weeks, and possibly even faster once I'm back in Leeds on a regular
basis.
========================================================================

PUBLISHER: "The Mouth of Sauron" (snail mail diplomacy/sf zine),
           "Bridge" (email Bridge zine) amongst others...
*************************************************************************

Publisher comments:

Quote is from Steven Wright.

******************************************************************************
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******************************************************************************