Re: Olympia - Free Market Economy

From: morrow@romulus.rutgers.edu (John Morrow)

Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1992 23:43:39 +0000

rsocia@renaissance.cray.com (Rick Socia) writes:

>Have you ever walked into a pawn shop and tried to simply sell 1000 VCRs?  It
>is not going to happen without 'special' negotiating.  Each trades will have a
>limit on how many he wants to simply buy, and at what price he will pay.  Any
>other transactions will require special negotiations.

And just how do you propose handling this?  That is my question.  This isn't
real life.  It isn't a pawn shop.  They haven't jammed little merchants into
the computer who "know" that buying 1000 VCRs is stupid.  We are dealing with
ONE MONTH TURNS here.  How are you going to deal with special negotiations?
Specifics, that is what I want to know.  I am simply presenting the problems.
Picture these specifics appearing on an orders sheet.

>|> Now, if someone
>|> OWNS the place where horses are bought and sold, they would need to
>|> have that 100,000 gold to pay off the sellers.

>This is correct.

This is a problem, in my opinion, considering the scale at which things
work at this time.

>Yes it would, and that is what troops are for.  The bigger the store, the
>more troops are required to protect it.  What is the difference if I have
>100,00 gold in a cash register or in a pocket.  If someone can get at it
>with impunity, let them go for it.

What are we going to have?

Shop [99999] stacked over:
  1) Shopkeeper, individual, rich
  2) American Peace Keeping Force, number: 5000

With one month turns, it is just too easy to swing 50 troops in by,
say, day 25, from "nowhere" to just about anyplace.  Do you suggest
every shop keeper keep, on hand at all times, at least 50 armed
guards?  This does not resonate as terribly realistic to me at the
scale that things currently operate at.

>|> OR, you will never be able to count
>|> on selling items.

>One thing I can count on now, is not selling any items in most cities.

Yes, but suppose you will arrive at Kircarth on day 20.  You know there
is a sword merchant there and you have 50 swords to sell.  The merchant's
quota is set for 100, so you assume you are safe.  You set your orders
accordingly.  On day 10, Willy the Annoying arrives and sells HIS 100
swords.  You are screwwed.  THAT is what I am worried about.  On the other
hand, if there IS no quota, the merchant only has enough money to buy
100 swords, what happens?  Oh, you can add extra commands to deal with
this but how many?

>|> Remember, we have ONE MONTH TURNS here.  It would
>|> require a very complex mechanic to vary market prices, number of
>|> sales, purchases, etc. so people, both buyers and sellers, don't get
>|> screwwed.  In addition, once you allow market prices to vary, you have
>|> the problem of just how much things are selling for.

>The trader sets his own prices.  They show up when you arrive
>in town.  The Buy/Sell options allow for max price you will Buy/Sell for.
>The only thing I would like to see added is a min/max price the trader will
>accept.  If he has long swords poted for 20 gold pieces, but he has his min
>price (a figure you cannot see) set for 15, then if you walk in and issue a
>BUY longsword 1 18, you have successfully negotiated a better price.  In
>fact the more I think about this the more I like it, and it's simplicity.

Yes, but how do you indicate prices from the PREVIOUS turn?  Also, a lot
of good "this turns prices" would do me if I arrive on day 10 and have
to set buy orders and don't have info as to the current market prices.
This sort of adjustment would throw a lot of emphasis to mail for basic
things such as buying and selling.  Is that a good thing?

>|> If you can come
>|> up with a good model that can handle these problems (i.e. work it
>|> out) without being so frustrating that people give up, let us know...

>What model?  What I am proposing is a free market.  No model.  Just let it
>work.  You can manufacture goods, and sell them at market.  Work out a
>contract in advance.  Trades can place orders for goods.  I envision a
>transportation business, moving goods from place to place.  Wow, this is
>getting fascinating.

If you are proposing that players deal with EVERYTHING (i.e. remove the
markets/total free economy) then I suggest you are asking for too much.
My mailbox is full enough now without writing 50 letters a turn to negotiate
purchases.  Some of us do work a real 40 hour a week job, have a wife,
friends, family, etc. and ALREADY spend up to 2-4 hours a day on this.
What *I* envision people doing who don't want to deal with this (like
myself) is simply doing everything ourselves -- make weapons and armor,
train horses, etc.  Why don't people use Starlight Courier?  It is too
easy to go buy an ox and do it yourself.

>As for monopolies, it cannot happen.  Every player has the same access to the>>same skills.  Only by military might can (an expensive endeavor) can one
>control a regions resources.

I see a bunch of start to finish operations with only the newbies getting
fleeced.  Sorry.

>I envision a 7-11 in every city!!!

I envision people with a "weapon team", a "horse team", an "armor team", etc
all pounding out all they would EVER need.

Sorry if the above sounds a bit hostile but I really don't think that you are
envisioning all the complexity your changes would add.  Sit down and write
the orders for 10 units (1 PC, 4 individuals, 5 units -- any skills you want)
and then add in the rules you envision, toss in the e-mail required, the
uncertainty, the plotting, etc. and you could spend DAYS working on one
turn sheet.  I don't have DAYS to spare.  Do you?

John Morrow - morrow@remus.rutgers.edu

References

Re: Olympia - Free Market Economy
morrow@romulus.rutgers.edu (John Morrow)
Wed, 17 Jun 1992 21:52:14 +0000
Re: Olympia - Free Market Economy
rsocia@renaissance.cray.com (Rick Socia)
Wed, 17 Jun 1992 23:43:16 +0000
Olympia - Free Market Economy
rsocia@renaissance.cray.com (Rick Socia)
Wed, 17 Jun 1992 13:31:57 +0000

Referenced By

Re: Olympia - Free Market Economy
morrow@romulus.rutgers.edu (John Morrow)
Wed, 17 Jun 1992 21:52:14 +0000
Re: Olympia - Free Market Economy
rsocia@renaissance.cray.com (Rick Socia)
Wed, 17 Jun 1992 23:43:16 +0000
Olympia - Free Market Economy
rsocia@renaissance.cray.com (Rick Socia)
Wed, 17 Jun 1992 13:31:57 +0000