Diplomacy: EP Chapter 2 - Issue 294 Part 1 From: nick@sunburn.uwaterloo.ca (Nick Fitzpatrick) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 00:56:44 +0000 (This might arrive a little late, the Waterloo (well actually Toronto) news feed has been down, and we are running about 4 days late here) Issue #294 (Part 1) of Chapter Two of the Electronic Protocol By Nicholas Fitzpatrick (nick@sunburn.uwaterloo.ca) September 29, 1992 (1992 09 29) Distributed via: rec.games.pbm rec.games.board bit.listserv.dipl-l ------------------------------------------------------------- Electronic Protocol Games played on the Diplomacy Adjudicator ------------------------------------------------------------- I have split this issue into two parts (parts 1 and 2) due to its size! **** TABLE OF CONTENTS **** PART ONE - Opinions, Letters, and Editorials: Long dip games (postal games) Letter from Karl Dotzek Letter from Danny Loeb Ken Lowe overrules 17-17 two-way draw in game ounce Note from Ken Lowe (jdr) Variant - Fantomas Diplomacy books available? DIPL-L News Birth of Youngstown on judge (mostly written by Ken Lowe) Postscript maps from judge results PART TWO - Summary of all moderated games on the Judge: List of game openings List of EP games on the DA For more info about the Judge For more info about the Electronic Protocol For archives List of diplomacy adjudicators List of gamemasters PART THREE - Report from the Battle Front In Issue 294, Part 2 ***** PART ONE ***** Abbreviations used in this issue: DL = Danny Loeb KD = Karl Dotzek NF = Nick Fitzpatrick KL = Ken Lowe (jdr) *** LONG DIP GAMES (POSTAL GAMES) *** >From BURGESSJ@gar.union.edu (John Burgess) Wed Sep 23 22:13:40 1992 I wanted to add a few words about the discussion in the most recent Chapter 2 of EP on long Diplomacy games under the Judge. By way of background, I am adjudicating one EP game by hand (what can I say, I enjoy doing it and I'm not quite ready to be replaced by a computer, though I'm fully supportive of the Judge in general), and I have a postal Diplomacy zine that is running seven games on a three week schedule. Of those seven games, one is moving into 1920 at present and has at least a couple of years of life (it isn't locked in a stalemate line and has four players left). This is not unusual in the postal world and the game began in 1987! Moreover, I myself have played in a game that ended in an English win in 1930 and have seen numerous games in the late 1920's. The 1930 game is the longest postal game of which I am aware and was written up by me in Diplomacy World last year. I also have some thoughts on why E-Mail and Judge games generally are shorter than postal games in game time as well as the universally accepted differential in real time. In most E-Mail games I've seen (including the ones I've adjudicated as GM) the top players are more or less as talented negotiators and tacticians as the top postal players; however, the poor E-Mail players are much worse players than practically any postal players I know -- even complete novices. In most E-Mail games there are two or three of these poor players who are cut to ribbons by the good players so that by 1905 or so there usually are only about four players left. I have not done a careful analysis of this but it happened in TRUST ME! -- the game I am adjudicating for EP. What do the other five games I am running postally look like (one is just starting)? One is in 1906 with all seven players still in, one is in 1907 with six players still alive, one is in 1908 also with six players, one is up to 1909 and still has six players, and the other game (excepting the one entering 1920) has completed 1910 and is down to only four players. Once a Dip game is down to four players the strategic possibilities usually become extremely limited and the game wraps up fairly quickly unless alliances shift repeatedly (as they did in the game I played Italy -- working it from two centers to about thirteen -- that ended with an English win in 1930). I think the efforts to bring the postal novice packages into the E-Mail realm is an important way to minimize this problem -- and I do think frivolous players who don't learn the game well enough to avoid elementary tactical errors are a problem who ruin the game for other players -- and if I can do anything to assist other postal emissaries like Mark Nelson to bring our experience here, please let me know. It's fun to watch you fight through growing pains while our postal hobby slowly ossifies with age. Unfortunately, I don't believe they can be linked easily. Anyway, I also want to thank you, Nick, personally for taking on the editorship of Chapter 2 of EP and wish you luck as you move past your 300th issue. I've been pubbing for nearly a decade and am only to #120. Jim Burgess (BURGESSJ@gar.union.edu) *** LETTER FROM KARL DOTZEK *** Karl sent the following regarding the last issue of EP. Talking about a point system > KD I feel that manage to survive in a game is worth getting some credit. > To survive needs a lot of Diplomatic effort, even if you help the > winning power to survive - if the latter has missed the victory > because of you, he will stab you anyway (which is your death > normally), if doesn't miss it, it's poor play of the rest of nations. > > KD I would propose something like 0.01 pts * #units-still-on-the-board. > > KD It is imaginable that every surviving power gets this award, also solo > winners and drawees, thus increasing the value of a victory even more, > but advantaging also those who got not eliminated. > > NF But any power, who is not eliminated and does not share in the win, is > simply > there because people do not want to play out the game to the natural > conclusion, everyone knows what the result will be, and the survivor would > not survive if the game was carried a little further. KD So what I'd better suggest is something like: 0.01 pts * <average-of-held-SCs> * #<survived-years> / #<yrs-the-game-was-played> KD How about that? One has to check if the numbers produced by this are still reasonable. Instead of years one could also use seasons, no problem. <average-of-held-SCs> means sum over the amount of #SC/year, divided through #yrs survived, which actually simplifies the formula to: 0.01 pts * <sum-of-#SC/yr> / <yrs-game-played> KD This takes into account how early a power got eliminated: points are not only given for survivors, but also for eliminated powers. KD This formula may lengthen games unnecessary of course and may also have the effect of always trying to hold as many centers as possible, which is not good in all situations. KD A problem arises if several players played one power through the years. Will the average-of-held-SCs be taken over the period the player played, or will the average be taken over the nation's survival period as a whole and assigned to the several players all the same? KD Well, my opinion is also, that those 'endurance' points should in no way be comparable to the amount of points you should get for a win or a draw. There has to be some qualitative difference between endurance points and 'real' victory points. Something like you need a hundred endurance points to get one victory point. I simply would like to see the efforts for survival/endurance reflected in at least *some* way. NF It seems a reasonable idea, part of the setup for the Hall of Fame, allows anyone to reinterpret the results, with their own point systems. However yours is so complex, I would have to hard-code it into the Hall of Fame, It would be possible, however I doubt that it would be so ambitious. I guess the main point, is that the number of points would be so small, that it is not worth mentioning. Then mention in the Hall of Fame should be enough, why would a loser need points. NF My main fear is that it would provide some justification for some players, in "trying to finish second", remember morat? KD A more general question about the Hall Of Fame: What do you all think about the fact, that someone who plays a lot of games has a higher chance to get many points as someone who plays only a few games? Someone who wins three games maybe less than someone who finishes a hundred three-way-draws! :-) NF Yes, this can be a problem, there is definitely room for a second point system, that would give points based on complete games played, and would take into allowance players who play less games. Perhaps something like Baseball's batting average of E.R.A. Talking about the Hall of Fame . . . > NF Machiavelli games could be included, but I haven't got the slightest idea > on how to assign points . . . KD Same principle as for standard and youngstown. There's a known number of players in the beginning. NF Well, I guess I know how to assign points for the win, I just don't know how to get my program to figure out automatically that there was a winner! I guess I would have to add something in to hard-code in winners. *** LETTER FROM DANNY LOEB *** Danny sent the following regarding the last issue of EP. >*** LONGEST JUDGE GAMES *** DL You should also note a recent article in EP which gave the EOG statement from the longest known standard game. It ended in the mid-30's. >KD I feel that manage to survive in a game is worth getting some credit. >To survive needs a lot of Diplomatic effort, even if you help the >winning power to survive - if the latter has missed the victory >because of you, he will stab you anyway (which is your death >normally), if doesn't miss it, it's poor play of the rest of nations. DL I disagree with Karl. Helping someone win the game is contrary to the objectives of the game. Of course, in a difficult position one must often flirt with death and help another player to the VERGE of victory, or pretend to help him to victory. I see no reason to credit a player with helping another player win if he couldn't earn the credit himself by forcing his way into a draw. NF Ken has an interesting point on this subject (see following article in this issue) *** KEN LOWE OVERRULES 17-17 TWO-WAY DRAW IN GAME OUNCE *** >From jdr@u.washington.edu Tue Sep 15 21:20:44 1992 > Concerning the game OUNCE, Italy (myself), and Russia would > once again like to petition for a draw. We have talked about it, and > decided that we would ask again after England and France were > eliminated. Both Countries will be without a supply center after this > turn, so Italy and Russia will control 17 centers each. > Looking at some of the Hall of Fame lists, there are many games > which end in 2-way draws. Please allow game Ounce to end this way > also. KL Some of them are legitimate, but most of them are bogus. I don't believe in draws that are not stalemates. Game Ounce is not a stalemate; I will not declare it a draw. I will, however, declare it a Russian win! Russia can take and hold Munich, Smyrna and Trieste uncontested. Congratulations Russia. I hope Italy thinks twice before handing you the win at the expense of the other players next time. Editor's Note ------------- The summary for the game ounce appears in part 3 *** NOTE FROM KEN LOWE (JDR) *** Ken recently sent me a copy of a (re-)registration request: Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 17:35:40 -0700 From: Judge Dash Request <jdr@u.washington.edu> Subject: There goes the neighborhood... Registration request processed: User: 596 50504 -142 Name: Saeed Siddiqui Phone: (505) 425-4336 Site: New Mexico H. University, Las Vegas Timezone: Mountain Email: Siddiqui_s@merlin.nmhu.edu Level:Novice Sex: Male Editor's Note ------------- So how are the chances of that noMERLIN switch for the judge, or perhaps a no 50504 switch! *** VARIANT - FANTOMAS *** >From deschatp@CHIMCN.UMontreal.CA (Deschatelets Pascal) As a contribution to your Email 'Zine, I could mention a few variants that were active with the 'Zine I used to play with, a few years ago. It was a French 'Zine, so I guess the variants might still be pretty unknown around... The first variant was called "Fantomas". It's basically a standard games, but players are allowed to "invisible" units. You choose one or none of your units as a "ghost" unit at the start of the game. The basic ratio normal/ghost unit is simple. For a build, disband and such, you can NEVER bring your number of ghost units over the number of normal units you own. If your number of ghost units is already higher than of normal units, you can't build any more ghost units until you bring your # of norm. units above the # of ghost units. That also means that if your number of ghost units is higher than std units, and you have to disband, you have to disband ghost units. The rest of the rules are exactly the same, with a few notes: SC taken by ghost units aren't announced. Not even to the owning player (except in a few games, the owning players knew which SC were lost). He only knows the number of SC he has, and only at each fall. So a player might publicly be declared has having 3 SC but have 10 in reality. It's a very chaotic game. You're never sure who's attacking who. Diplomacy is the name of the game though. It's quite easy to backstab someone without the victim noticing the attack before a few seasons. Only a lucky "bounce" would tell the victim that ghost units are in his backyard. So you have to diplomacize until your head hurts. 'Coz it's VERY hard to have any insurances against a backstabbing ally, as you don't know where half his units are. Pascal *** DIPLOMACY BOOKS AVAILABLE *** From: gummi@rhi.hi.is (Gudmundur Bjarni Josepsson) Does anybody know if there are any books available on Diplomacy? I'm looking for something about the game in general, opening moves, most effective threats, most subtle lies etc. Stuff that is obtainable (for free) via Internet is also welcomed. Thanks, Gummi *** DIPL-L NEWS *** Some 30+ messages passed through DIPL-L (bit.listserv.dipl-l, aka dipl-l@mitvma.mit.edu) over the last few days! Often excerpts from DIPL-L are published in EP Chapter 2, however what went through over the weekend is just too much for me to handle. (In fact if it were not for the 300+ error messages that the listserv sent to me about DIPL-L, I would have produced this issue last Sunday!). If you want to subscribe to DIPL-L, send the message SUB DIPL-L Your Name to listserv@mitvma.mit.edu or read the Usenet news group bit.listserv.dipl-l Here are a couple of the better excerpts: (in other words Eric, the rest are all yours, for chapter 8!) (Sorry Mark, by the time your good ones showed up, I was so pissed off with the amount of mail I was getting, I filed them away for archiving). *** BIRTH OF YOUNGSTOWN ON JUDGE (MOSTLY WRITTEN BY KEN LOWE) *** From: George Boyce <george@NR-TECH.CIT.CORNELL.EDU> I though I would pass this on, a conversation I had with Ken about the judge variant of youngstown. It gives you an idea of how a variant is born. > Regarding off board area movement, your description is very different > from the version promoted by the Schenectady Wargamers Association, or > at least as I know it. That's probably correct. I solicited rule descriptions and got two which were very different. The fellow that sent me the SWA map gave me what he had as the SWA rules for this variant, but I found them quite inconsistent and confusing -- particularly when it came to the off board box movement. The rules he gave me indicated that you couldn't move from one box to another and paths were not reflective. Eg: You could go from NPO-ObL-NAO, but NAO-ObL was not allowed, you had to go through ObA. Another problem came up when trying to support units. He tried to tell me you could support a move into another box although it wasn't explicitly described in his rules, but that violates basic principles of Diplomacy, namely that you can only support a move into a space where you can move. Without being able to do that support, though, there were cases where a power could park a unit in an offboard box and it could stand off all attempted attacks no matter how many units the aggressor had free to throw at it. Meanwhile, the guy with the standing unit could continue to pump units through the one-way door. I chose to use most of Jon's rules when it came to the off board boxes as they were much more succinct and seemed to be more consistent with the rest of the game and the topology of the map -- not to mention much easier to implement. > So, I was wondering how wide spread your variant is and where/when did > Jon Monsarrat describe his off board rules? I have no idea how wide spread Jon's variant is/was. I got it from another email enthusiast who got it from him as he had his own adjudication program that supported it. My variant is a mixture of his (offboard boxes) and the SWA variant (initial locations and Suez) so I'm pretty sure that it is only used for games played via my adjudicator. I have no connection with non-email Diplomacy, so I don't know what gets played outside my world. > George -Ken *** POSTSCRIPT MAPS FROM JUDGE RESULTS *** From: George Boyce <george@NR-TECH.CIT.CORNELL.EDU> I have a program that takes the status of a Diplomacy game and produces a (postscript) map of the game, complete with units indicating positions and arrows indicating which moves were attempted and which failed etc. It currently does a pretty good job on any report, or series of reports, sent out by the judge. It tries to skip header and trailer lines of mail files so I, for example, just pipe a given mail message directly to the program and out comes a map on the printer. If the report is a movement report, it can print out a second map of the resulting positions. If the report has a center ownership section, that will get put on the map too, as do movement orders. It has support for the most common variants including youngstown. It shouldn't be hard to support others if a postscript version of the map already exists. The program is written in C and is in the public domain. It is free to anyone who wants it or who wants to put it on an ftp or mail server. It is 150K as a uuencoded compressed tar file. George grb1@cornell.edu ***** PART TWO ***** **** LIST OF GAME OPENINGS **** Moderated Replacement Openings include: spider and luzon Unmoderated games openings include: warsaw, bali, elba, zen and oneboat. (belch is proceeding NMR for 'interests sake' raj is about to be shut down) Umoderated Australian judge openings: bing, twinkles Signups available for the following moderated games in formation: shuppan, senlac, ulm, trafalga, boyne and sinister. baldric at Australian judge. (krauts for german speakers only) **** MONTHLY LIST OF EP GAMES ON THE DA **** --- EXPLANATION --- Here is the monthly update on games played on Judge. Each game is represented by a line of data (followed possibly by a line of comments --- please send me comments I can use if you are a GM!). The games are sorted according the variant rules which are used. Also if you have an EP number, and I don't, please send it to me. Column Explanation ------ ----------- (1) Name of game including a "#" if game is "private" or "unlisted" (2) Electronic Protocol number (and Chapter) if available. (3) Name of the GM (see list of GMs below). (4-10) Updates on game in chronological order (most recent on the right) The updates for a game in formation indicate the number of players needed to start. For example, -5. The updates for a game in progress indicate the season (F for Fall or S for Spring), the last 2 digits of the year, and the phase (M for movement, B for builds, and R for retreats). All this is possibly followed by the indication of the number of replacement players (-1), temporary replacements (T1) needed, or needed later on (*1). --- LIST --- Name EP# GM Feb04 Apr03 May22 Jun30 Aug26 Sep15 Sep29 ------- --- -- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- STANDARD RULES cubit 158 jdr S01M F03M S05R ? S08M F08M Over Game completed, see summary in part 3. dram 159 jdr S01M F03M S06M ? F10M S12M F12M evolt 161 jdr -7 F02M S06M ? F11M S13M Over Game completed, see summary in part 3. furlong 164 jdr F02M S04M ? S08R-2 F09M S10M hector 165 jdr F02M F05B ? S09M S10M Over Game completed, see summary in part 3. infinite 166 jdr F02M F05R ? F08M F09M F10M karat 185 jdr S01M F03M ? S05M F06M F07M lot 186 jdr S01M F03R ? F06B S08M Over Game completed, see summary in part 3. meter 187 jdr S01M F02B ? S08M S09M S10M newton 188 jdr S01M F03M ? S07M S08M F08B ounce 189 jdr -2 F03M ? F08R S10M Over Game completed, see summary in part 3. pint 190 jdr F02R ? S06M-1 S07M S08M quart 191 jdr F03M ? F06M-2 S07M F07M rad 205 jdr F01B ? F04B-1 F05R F06M second 206 jdr S02M ? S06M F06M S07M ton 207 jdr S01M ? S03M-2 F04M S05M unit 208 jdr S01M ? S05M F05M F06M volt 209 jdr S01M ? S04M F04M S05M watt 210 jdr -6 ? F02M-3 F02B S03M ant 211 jdr ? S04R S05M F05M beetle 212 jdr ? F04M F04B S05R cicada 213 jdr -3 F03M S04M F04R dragnfly 214 jdr S03M S03R-1 F03B earwig 215 jdr F02M F03M F04M fly 216 jdr S02M F02B S03M gnat 217 jdr F02M S03M F03B hornet 218 jdr S01M S02M S02R inchworm 219 jdr S01M F01M F02M junebug 220 jdr S01M S01M S02M locust 221 jdr -1 F01M F02B moth 224 jdr S01M S02M pillbug 227 jdr S01M F01M spider 228 jdr S01M-1 F01M-1 tick 229 jdr S01M S01M wasp 230 jdr S01M S01M antelope 232 jdr -5 S01M beaver 233 jdr F01M cow 234 jdr S01M dog 237 jdr S01M elk jdr -7 baldrick Bob -7 This game is on the Australian judge, players are asked to list the game before joining. (ie has grey press, etc) cheetah 225 desper S01M F05M F06B F08M Warp game croatia 148 nick F03M F06M F08M F10M F12M F13R F14B Most advanced standard game on judge (took over from marengo) diablos j_oregan -7 -5 S01M F01M F02M fall Gummi ? S02M S03M grass karl S01M S03M S04M S06M-2 S07M F07B German language game kaiser karl -3 F03M F05M F07B S08M S09M Big mess now: G stabs E marengo 129 scottb S09M F11B S14M S14M S14M S14M-2 F14R Oldest standard EP # in Chapter 2. peregrin 236 Casmacin -6 S01M sinister Starkey -7 -7 An Evil game for Evil Players *Please* read press help! ulm 235 Marty -6 S01M womble n0kernic F02M F03B Only Adelaide University Comp. Sci!!! wren 223 Casmacin F01B S03M S04M STANDARD GUNBOAT - Identities of players unknown. All messages are public. dppd loeb F09M S13M dppe loeb S01M S04M F05B S08M S09M S10M Last remaining game against the Bordeaux Diplomat. Turkey is heading towards victory. New DPP games near the end of the year? eldritch j_oregan -5 S02M S04M S05M F05B sarajevo 195 desper F03B F04M S06M Big year for France - at what cost? trafalga Marty -7 -5 STANDARD GUNBOAT ROUND-ROBIN - Each player plays all 7 powers in 7 games. game 2 174 Jamie F05M F06M F07M game 3 175 Jamie F07R F08R F09M game 4 176 Jamie F02B S03R S04R game 5 177 Jamie F01M F02M YOUNGSTOWN RULES (10 players) Extended map including Asia and Africa. dien 124 jdr S11M F11M S14M F15M F18M S19R S19R giggles dwisemanF08B S10M F11M S12M F13M S14M S14M Local ERIM game krauts karl -9 -9 -9 -10 -10 Press to be written in German. Long signon period anticipated. (ed: Very, very long signon period!) Spiel in Deutsch, alle Verhandlungen werden auf Deutsch gefuehrt. timor 160 nick -10 F01M S04M S05M F07M F08M F09M YOUNGSTOWN GUNBOAT GAMES celebes 197 nick -8 F03M S04M F05M Super warp 36h deadline, 72h grace, 7 days a week. luzon 192 Marty S02R F04M-2 S05M F05M F06M Warp speed. 24h deadline, 72h grace. mindanao 231 Marty -7 -6 -4 S01M S01M shuppan Josh -8 -5 A White Press Gunboat!! sumatra 182 nick F04M F05B F07M F08M F09M Warp speed. 24h deadline, 72h grace. sunda 171 nick F04R F05M S07M-1 S08M-2 F09M Warp speed. 24h deadline, 72h grace. GREAT BRITAIN RULES (7 players) Britain starts with 6 SC's but all armies! hastings 139 loeb S05R F07B F13M S16M F19M F20M F21B England (with 6 fleets!), France, Turkey push back G. senlac Matt -7 -6 CHAOS RULES (34 players) Regular map. Each SC is owned by a different player. fontenoy 114 jdr F09M F10M F14M F15M F17B F18R F19M First Chaos game. 6 remaining players in a wide open position. iona 169 jdr S01M F02M F04R S06M F08M S09M S10M UV3 northern alliance faces AG18 southern alliance. (U and 1 lead) zenith NONE -11 F00B*2 F01M F01B 1898 RULES / GUNBOAT GAME corsica 222 dmb S00M F00M-1 S01M F01M boyne Marty -6 -6 MACHIAVELLI RULES - An economic variant of Diplomacy marketed by Avalon Hill. sober andre -2 F54M F55M S56M U56M-1 A gunboat Machiavelli Variant without Loans and special units. **** FOR MORE INFO ABOUT THE JUDGE**** For X: Send Y to JUDGE@U.WASHINGTON.EDU: ------ --------------------------------- (*QUESTIONS ABOUT A CERTAIN GAME*) More detailed information about a game: LIST <name-of-game> History of a game: SUMMARY <name-of-game> Detailed Recent History of a game: HISTORY <name-of-game> <options> Regular updates for a certain game: OBSERVE <name-of-game> <password> Copy of variant rules: GET INFO.<name-of-variant> or GET PRESS or GET GUNBOAT (*GENERAL QUESTIONS*) General information HELP Update of the list of games above LIST More detailed list LIST FULL To be informed of all game changes OBSERVE CONTROL <password> Default house rules GET EP.HOUSE.RULES Other information: Contact me (nick@sunburn.uwaterloo.ca) or Ken Lowe (jdr@u.washington.edu) or your game master (see list below) **** FOR MORE INFO ABOUT THE ELECTRONIC PROTOCOL **** To solve Email problems, contact one of the email wizards: swb@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu, andre@hern.stonemarche.org eisen@cs.jhu.edu, eisen@jhuvms.bitnet, or wcw27974@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu Other information: Contact Eric Klien (eric_s_klien@cup.portal.com) **** FOR ARCHIVES **** 1) Use the HISTORY command for recent game result. Use the GET command (especially GET FLIST) to receive JUDGE related files. 2) Contact the archivists, jlitvin@hfglobe.intel.com/John Litvin, 3) Anonymous FTP Machine: Directory: Contents: Milton.U.Washington.Edu /public/misc judge source, postscript maps FTP.FU-Berlin.DE /pub/misc/diplomacy variants, hall of fame, postscript maps, articles, judge source 137.248.151.12 /pub/incoming/ep-chapter Old issues of EP. **** LIST OF DIPLOMACY ADJUDICATORS **** USA judge@u.washington.edu Australia judge@gu.uwa.edu.au South Africa judge@shrike.und.ac.za **** LIST OF GAME MASTERS **** David M Bowen dmb@bigd.cray.com dmb@sequoia.cray.com Dave Cebula cebulad@physics.orst.edu Karl Dotzek karl@adler.ims.uni-stuttgart.de Jamie Dreier pl436000@brownvm.brown.edu Nicholas Fitzpatrick nick@sunburn.uwaterloo.ca Danny Loeb loeb@geocub.greco-prog.fr Ken Lowe jdr@u.washington.edu Michael Luft scottb@cs.utexas.edu Sean MacIntosh casmacin@atlas.cs.upei.ca John Aidan O'Regan J_Oregan%csvax1@iruccvax.UCC.IE Andre Verweij andre@duteina.tudelft.nl andre@hlniob.uucp. Gudmundur Bjarni Josepsson gummi@rhi.hi.is Rick Desper desper@mat.rutgers.edu Matt McLeod C9106225@cc.newcastle.edu.au Josh Smith irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu Sean Starkey starkey@netcom.com Bob Blanchett s1029708@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au Up