Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)

From: rob@ccc.govt.nz (Rob McNeur)

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 11:30:11 +0000

In article <C8y9Ls.8F8@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes:
> In article <1993Jun21.120033.1775@ccc.govt.nz> rob@ccc.govt.nz (Rob McNeur) writes:
>
>>In real life, there is always a 'trial and error' learning curve on almost
>>anything. I prefer the same sort of thing in PB(e)Ms.
>
> So would I. But past history has taught me that I've played lots of
> games where I see people getting wiped out (and quitting in disgust)
> because of the learning curve. This is not good game design. A perfect
> design where the results were intuitive and you didn't _need_ to know
> those formulae would be best, but I've never met such a design.
>
> For example, the commercial game "State of War" has a comment in the
> rules that moving through mountain hexes causes you to lose troops.
> It's only when you try it that you discover that the loss is so large
> that you can wipe out an entire army in one turn. I'd hazard to guess
> that nobody who's ever played State of War enjoyed discovering that
> little rule.
>
Agreed, but you can give a strong indication of this in the rules without
stating formulae.
A simple comment along the lines of
"moving troops through mountain hexes can cause you to loose troops.
Rumour has it that some complete armies have vanished completely this way"

This doesn't show a formula, does give a strong indicator that its not just
dangerous, its *bloody* dangerous, and means that the only way to be sure is
to experiment, but you have been warned !

>>Oldtimers may have a fairly good idea, learned by hard-won experience.
>>But even oldtimers should never be able to work out the formulae exactly,
>>merely to a best approximation from the final results.
>
> That depends on what game we are talking about. And so does the answer
> "reveal or not reveal".
>
> Imagine playing Galaxy without knowing the formulae. I'd bet that an
> experienced player would have a pretty good idea of what they were,
> and would be able to beat the crap out of a newbie.
>
True. Plus the code itself is easy to get hold of which means that anyone who
has access to ftp has a big advantage. They can get formulae to everything.
In fact, they can get a copy of the code and do their own dummy runs at home
to work out the best results of several sets of orders.
I still think that not showing formulae, but just publishing comments that
give strong indications of results is preferable.

> I think we'd be in agreement on what the optimal realistic game would
> be like, Rob and I.
Yep. Likewise the optimal realistic players  :-)

> But I have some pretty strong views about what
> would have worked better in the actual games I've played. And that's
> why I publicize things in the games I play now. Just look at the
> result: I make lots of friends who give me lots more information,
> because they like what I do. I'm not that nice of a person
> otherwise...
>
I have nothing against giving out information, or publicising things that
players have found. I just prefer that information regarding the inner
workings of how the system works to be more invisible.
Information on how spells, travel, spaceships etc *seem* to work is great,
it also means that sometimes, someone will get it wrong. And thats OK as
well....
As soon as you publish hard and fast formulae from the inner workings of the
system, then there is no longer as much chance (or reason) for people to
experiment to find out whether the information you hand out is true, accurate
or complete.

In fact, I can see some very handy ways of spreading disinformation like this.
But that can't work if formulae are freely available.

Just my $0.02c NZ (at the current exchange rate, thats about $0.0106c US)

Rob McNeur
Rob@ccc.govt.nz

References

PBM design: give away the formulas?
skrenta@rt.com (Rich Skrenta)
Sat, 19 Jun 1993 18:12:59 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rob@ccc.govt.nz (Rob McNeur)
Mon, 21 Jun 1993 12:00:33 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Mon, 21 Jun 1993 02:29:51 +0000

Referenced By

PBM design: give away the formulas?
skrenta@rt.com (Rich Skrenta)
Sat, 19 Jun 1993 18:12:59 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rob@ccc.govt.nz (Rob McNeur)
Mon, 21 Jun 1993 12:00:33 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Mon, 21 Jun 1993 02:29:51 +0000