Re: PBM design: give away the formulas?

From: desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins)

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 22:12:14 +0000

William Bruvold <wbruvold@weber.ucsd.edu> writes:
> David (i think) misses the point at least if people have Atlantis in
> the back (front?) of their minds.  In this game (along with some
> others) the game may largely be determined by one simple random event
> on turn one, which factions moved in which direction from the starting
> square.  Those that randomly chose south (assuming no private
> knowledge) have what I believe will be a game spoiling advantage,
> acess to a prime resource.  After that the game is simply one in which
> the player(s) that opened with the advantage chose the ONE strategy
> that makes sense.  All other responses are _largely_ second best
> responses. What has been pointed out is that the ability to try
> different styles of play, experimenting and developing along vastly
> different lines makes no sense and the game turns into a slow version
> of UCSD empire, a very good war game, but NOT a PBEM fantasy/role
> playing game.

Well, I don't know who said that Atlantis is _supposed_ to be an FRP
game.  I think that most people who read the rules could see that
Atlantis was going to be primarily a wargame, not a role playing game.
That's why a lot of us went out loaded for bear on turn one.  (And, at
least for me, why I signed up in the first place.)

I strongly disagree that Atlantis is "largely determined" by what
happens on turn one.  Certainly it is the case that if you end up in a
mountainous area, then you are going to have to produce swords, and if
you end up in a forested area, then you are going to have to produce
bows.  To me that is the mark of a good game---that one has to adapt
one's strategy to the situation in which one finds oneself.  However I
strongly disagree that there is a "single" strategy that makes sense at
that point.  At least for me, there have already been several
interesting strategic decisions in Atlantis, including where to fight,
where to concentrate forces, when to invest in growth and when to invest
in combat potential, and so on.  And there have also been several
interesting tactical decisions, including where to recruit, what skills
to train in, what units to merge with what other units, and so on.  I
would say that there is less of a single strategy than in, say, Galaxy.
(Colonize planets, build industry until fully developed, then research
until you have a tech edge, then build warships, then bash someone to
get more space, then repeat.)

> Some of this discussion can be cleared up by noting that good
> strategy games build in randomness AND flexibility.  They offer
> players with numerous "what if" chances and paths that, due to
> either responses by opponents, are made either advantagous or
> idiotic.  What good games do NOT have is straightforward mini/max
> solutions (the problem with Atlantis) in which a simple
> understanding of the rules indicates the best possible response.

Gee, I wish I had you to run my position.  I guess you could make these
decisions and plans that take me hours in a matter of seconds....

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "straightforward minimax
solutions."  If you mean that building swords is better than, say,
becoming a specialist in armor before you have any swords, well then of
course.  It doesn't take formulas to figure that out.  But if you mean
that it is easy to figure out exactly how many men to devote to which
different functions, than I really do disagree.  If it were all that
easy, I would have lost interest and quit by now.

David desJardins

References

Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
sjc@cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 18:49:06 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 19:08:28 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
wbruvold@weber.ucsd.edu (William Bruvold)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 20:38:52 +0000

Referenced By

Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
sjc@cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 18:49:06 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 19:08:28 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
wbruvold@weber.ucsd.edu (William Bruvold)
Wed, 23 Jun 1993 20:38:52 +0000