Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)

From: mebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (MsciDave)

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 08:38:00 +0000

In article <1993Jun24.231347.13461@cs.tcd.ie>, rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace) writes...
>srt@aero.org (Scott 'Dr. Pain' Turner) writes:
>
>>rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace) writes:
>>>Alright then, how about 200 peasants and 10 swordsmen?  The peasants
>>>will only win if the first 30 of them are prepared to die.  In real
>>>life, the leader of the swordsmen will have to figure out whether
>>>this will be the case, based on his intuitive knowledge of psychology
>>>and the tacit knowledge of the area that he has picked up.
>>>There is no equivalent of this when looking at a computer-generated
>>>turn report, hence to have a basis for a decision you need to have
>>>access to the rules.

I think part of the problem is that you, as the computer game
programer, are making certain assumptions about what information is
available.  If you put more information on the turn sheets then intuition
works.  In real life a commander would be able to see at least roughly
what level of opponents he was facing.  And he'd probably be able to tell
how determined they are (or how well lead).  Even with that info he has
to decide if he thinks he can win.  However, I'd prefer to see people
making decisions based on information like that then on a formula.

>Ah, no.  In real life, the leader will be fairly sure what the outcome
>will be, under a given set of circumstances (e.g. if he knows his own
>troops well, knows what the opposition is like, and knows the conditions
>he will be fighting under).  The uncertainty in real life generally
>comes from things like not knowing the capability of one's enemy, or
>what he is going to do next.  This is where it should come from in games
>also.

Right, the uncertainty should come from the same things as in
real life.  In real life a commander has no real idea what the equation
is.  He has an idea how good his troops are, he knows how advanced/good
his equipment is, and he knows roughly how good the leadership/morale
on his side is.  Most likely he knows more about the enemy then most pbm
games (at least the computer moderated internet ones) tell someone.
There is no way that he can say that if he added a level x leader his
strength would go up by y.

>Which doesn't work, because real life groups of soldiers, all of which
>go under the name "swordsmen" (or "archers", or "artillerymen" etc.)
>differ in many ways, which their leader learns about, but which are not
>expressed in a game printout with the word "swordsmen" on it.  Making
>exact formulas available is a game substitute for the tacit information
>that would be available in real life.  It produces the same net result.

No, it produces a similar result.  It also distorts things by
showing players exactly which units/skills give the greatest advantage.  In
real life this isn't always known.  Giving just the economic formulae
(as I said earlier, they need to be there) and then giving more information
on the turn sheets can accomplish the same thing.  Perhaps it isn't as
easy to program but I think it would give a more pleasing game.

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
mebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
__________

References

Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
ulim@coli.uni-sb.de (Ulrich Mayring)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 10:41:26 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 21:26:47 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)
Thu, 24 Jun 1993 23:13:47 +0000
PBM design: give away the formulas?
skrenta@rt.com (Rich Skrenta)
Sat, 19 Jun 1993 18:12:59 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rob@ccc.govt.nz (Rob McNeur)
Mon, 21 Jun 1993 12:00:33 +0000

Referenced By

Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
ulim@coli.uni-sb.de (Ulrich Mayring)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 10:41:26 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
gl8f@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Tue, 22 Jun 1993 21:26:47 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rwallace@cs.tcd.ie (Russell Wallace)
Thu, 24 Jun 1993 23:13:47 +0000
PBM design: give away the formulas?
skrenta@rt.com (Rich Skrenta)
Sat, 19 Jun 1993 18:12:59 +0000
Re: PBM design: give away the formulas? (*FORMULAE !)
rob@ccc.govt.nz (Rob McNeur)
Mon, 21 Jun 1993 12:00:33 +0000