Re: PBM design and formulae - a fresh start From: bc@lnec.pt (Luis Miguel Sequeira) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1993 17:50:02 +0000 By no means I'm trying to pit anyone against anyone else, but... saschreu@cs.vu.nl (Schreuder SA) wrote: >gym@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Graham Matthews) writes: >> >>You live in a rarified world Russell. Most people do not have the mathematical >>skills you allude to - sorry but its true! Ever played serious games with >>people who are language or philosophy students. One game with such people >>will convince you that what I am saying is true! > >But what is the point in playing against people who aren't able to do >simple calculations? You are saying they aren't even able to calculate >distances using Pythagoras, because then they need to subtract, square, >add and taking a square root! > >You are almost talking about somebody who doesn't want to use the rules, >or to devote some time to study them. Well, I'm lazy. I HATE to read the rules. I even HATE MORE to read COMPLEX rules. So what do you do, if I want to have fun? a) I skip 90% of the rules, and try to live with the rest (works 90% of the time); b) I don't play. This guarantees that I won't feel unhappy when I'm destroyed, et cetera, et cetera. So, to really enjoy a game, it has to :- a) have rules so simple that I can read them and have no nightmares about them; b) no formulas, thanks (or few of them, and none of them having complex equations with trigonometric parameters or differencial equations of any sort. Enough of 'em in my days of study, thankyouverymuch). I want to enjoy myself. If I really need to exert my masochistic tendencies, I can always load my favorite spreadsheet (I've got none) and try to look some flaws in Wiles' demonstration of Fermat's Law. Well, what I really mean is, if someone is going to present me a game with THOUSANDS of rules, and ZILLIONS of tables & formulas, then the game must be really worth it. And for such a game I'm expecting nothing but the very best. I really _HATE_ to "devote some time to the rules" (I've heard the phrase often, "oooh, if you just look at the rules and get familiar with them, you surely will enjoy this game!"). If the game is simple enough, I'll give it a try. If the game is for people averaging an IQ above 150, well, it's not really my type of game. Of course I open my own exceptions, and found out some very nice games with thousands of rules (eg. two PBMs and a boardgame - Empires in Arms). But the games _must_ offer a lot in exchange for the trouble of having to read it. In contrast, present me a game with 50 or so rules, and I most certainly will try it! Even if the game has simple rules, BUT has a 1000-page-manual explaining just the background, I'm willing to try it (and have something nice to read over the weekend!). But to read wargamese just to enjoy myself afterwards with the game... no thanks (or else, the game has to be very, very good. I mean EXCELLENT with capital 'E'). >The formulas I've seen are only: adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. >Maybe a square root, or a log/exp. But any calculator has those functions, >so anyone who can use a calculator, is able to use those formulas. Argh. Too much trouble. Just the thought of pressing the calculator keys... yawn, too much work for me... >All games need some basics skills. We play tennis, while some people >aren't able to. We use english, while some people can't understand it. >So: We publish formulas, even when some people can't work with them. Sorry, I must have missed the point in this classical example of syllogism. Shouldn't it read: So: We publish formulas, because pigs don't fly? :-) ... mind you, I'm not really _against_ the formulas. I think my first message, in reply to Rich's question was something like: "I'd _prefer_ a game with hidden formulas to a game with explicit square roots, exponentials, logs, anti-logs, and unreal numbers. But that doesn't stop me to play and have fun." Anyway, just publishing the formulas is a way of stating: "this is how the game works. Love it, or hate it." While NOT publishing the formulas demands much more from the game designer to keep the formula-lovers happy (as we've seen). He has to show them WHY he doesn't need the formulas, and still get an interesting game going. IMHO, this demands a lot more work than "just throwing up a few rules and formulas, let's play". And even this is hard work (see, for instance, the endless discussions about any type of game design, even a simple one). And, as I said before, it's not obvious that a "good" game (in the sense that a lot of people like it and play it a lot) has to have logical rules and well-designed formulas. Chaotic game design and horrible tables & formulas have their followers, too. >This is Rec.games.pbm, so stop talking about real time games. In PBMs, >one is able to think, in stead of have good reflexes. We were talking >about a PBM tennis game, and not about "normal" games. If you were, please >post your next article in the right newsgroup. What about intuition & common sense? Do they have their place in PBeMs, or not? What do you think? And what about diplomacy, elloquence, and the art of oratory? Still sounds like I'm talking about text-based, play-by-mail games? Well, as a matter of fact, there are a _lot_ of real-world skills that are quite in demand on PBeMs, just due to the complex player interaction involved. Even a boardgame Diplomacy, with all its fun "behind the scenes", is no much for a 200-person-PBeM... Luis Sequeira, a role-playing play-by-mailer, and definitely _NOT_ a strategist/economicist type... :-) _________________________________________________________________________ / / Computer scientists do it byte by byte. _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ We don't ask for miracles to get the job _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ done, we RELY upon them! _/ _/ _/ _/ If the job still isn't done, we'll stick _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ with Emacs instead... bc@lnec.pt Luis Miguel Sequeira Laboratorio Nacional de Engenharia Civil Phone 351-1-8482131 Ext. 2752 Centro Informatica/Grupo Sistemas Centrais "Don't call me, I'll call you" Av. Brasil, 101 - 1700 Lisboa, Portugal / _________________________________________________________________________/ Referenced By Up