ARENA: randomness From: carl@gergo.tamu.edu (Carl D. Perkins) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 05:30:00 +0000 OK, now that the current Arena is coming to a close in the not too distant future... I think one of the most noticable problems with Arena is the extent to which it is random. Most obvious is the comments made, many of which are ludicrous as the various examples posted here show. They are often redundant "made bad use of special tactics, and used special tactics very poorly" type things. They also frequently have nothing to do with what is actually going on - things like saying the combatant showed no wizardry with his weapon when he never got an opportunity to even take a swing with it. They can also be pretty silly, doing "slashes" or "gashes" with a blunt weapon for example. Then there's Vances opening comments: I almost always see him telling me what sort of armor and weaponry I have, which I quite naturally already know, but he frequently never tells me what my opponent has. Do both combatants get the same Vance text? It sure doesn't seem like it since (I extimate) 90% of the time I get my own gear mentioned, but only maybe 50% of the time do I get to find out what my opponent will be using. Then there's the random comments about the combatant - sometimes he's tall the rest of the time he's not, all kinds of rumors which are never true and therefore pointless - if none of that is ever true you should just skip it as it is a complete waste of time to generate it or read it: anybody can generate random junk messages, what's the point in mailing hundreds of them to dozens of people twice a day? The randomness of the messages can be amusing, true, but it would be more interesting if what it was saying had more to do with what was actually going on. The combat itself is also incredibly random. In many cases what happens is completely random - in one turn Bullwinkle had his weapon shattered twice and his shield once in 8 bouts, about as much of that as he'd seen in his previous 100 or so bouts (that same turn Rocky shattered Grizzle's weapon - as the first act of the bout, then getting pummeled to a loss by Grizzle's fists in round 3...). In some bouts I see messages about half a dozen things happening, mostly grmacing and rude gestures, and my gladiator is then exhasuted at the end of the round but then in the next bout there are 30+ messages about things going on - all kinds of attacks, parries, and dodges in addition to the usual spinning the weapon over the head (which, by the way, is a great way to get yourself killed in a real fight - while you're doing that you are not doing what you are supposed to be doing with it, either hitting your opponent or blocking a swing from him), pounding it on the arena floor (which is somthing that also is not real clever but in many cases rather hard to do - how, not to mention why, do you pound your fist into the floor from any kind of a reasonable stance?), making faces, and gesturing any yet the galdiator is not noticably tired after all that. It is either *very* inconsistent or there is a lot going on that we never get messages about but should be. When nothing is reported as having happened, relatively little vigor should have been expended - the amount spent on maneuvering around could well be the same, but none is being spent making attacks, blocking, parrying, or dodging. Speaking of dodging - much too much of it is going on. It is very difficult to dodge a blow compared to blocking or parrying it - most blows that do not hit (but could have) should be blocked or parried as it is much easier to move your weapon to block the path of a blow that it is to move your entire body out of the way - think of any fencing matches, martial arts, SCA combat, or boxing matches you've seen and you'll notice that relatively few blows are dodged completely, it is primarily blocking and parrying - although this is often accompanied by moving out of the way to some degree, the primary thing that kept them from getting hit was the block or parry. Much of the problem may not be the actual degree of randomness in some areas, it's just that *everything* seems to be rather random which means that if everything comes out random in the unfavorable direction in a bout the gladiator can end up doing nothing (literally - I've seen bouts where my gladiator only gets the "does nothing" and a gesture or two for a 2 or 3 round bout during which he is gradually shredded by bunches of blows that are, at best, "glancing" type hits, and I had a bout where my opponent was carying way too much, got completely exhasuted after round 2 and never got in a hit again, with my gladiator averaging about 1 attempt at a hit every 2 rounds, and a bunch of "is looking for a chance to hit" messages then getting a draw after 10 rounds), or doing practically nothing and still getting exhausted. On the other hand, if things are all at the favorable end of the randomness the same character can do dozens of hits, dodges, and parries and still not get tired. For some examples of this sort of thing (not the best examples, these are both from the last turn)... Here's a short bout that, in the beginning of round 2 looks like it will be the end of Rocky's latest loosing streak. (As of the end of the turn these come from, Rocky had lost 33 bouts in a row - he has a tendancy of having loosing streaks broken by very short bits of doing fairly well, as an experimental design Rocky is a good demonstration that the SPEED characteristic is not all that usefull, although his current loosing streak started the turn before his last attribute increase which was upping his AGILITY, after which he seems to have been doing *fewer* hits that do any damage - but hey, he even beat Mighty Mouse once a while back, although this is another example of the randomness of the system as I think that is one of the few other occasions when Rocky did a "tremendous" type hit.) Round 1. Rocky executes a bold whirling slice! Rocky hits. It's a trivial gash to the chest. Rocky boasts: "Oooo! I bet that hurt!" Rocky tries to locate a chance to launch an attack. Rocky executes a brave whirling smash! At the final split second, S-man deftly springs away. Rocky performs a brave stabbing thump! S-man escapes the thump. S-man directs a vicious smile at Rocky and catches his breath. S-man strikes at Rocky. S-man strikes a minor smash to Rocky's right leg. Rocky is too worn out to attack. S-man strikes at Rocky. Rocky is so exhausted, he cannot sidestep the thump. S-man hits with his longsword. It's an inconsequential smash to the weapon arm. OK, Rocky got exhausted here after 3 attack attempts, one of which hit, and 1 successful dodge - after which he should have had an opportunity to catch his breath along with S-man (but evidently didn't) - and taking a hit. Here's the rest of the bout. Round 2. Rocky strikes at S-man. Rocky's foil does a tremendous amount of damage! Rocky's foil brings down a disabling attack to the left leg! Rocky grimaces at S-man and brags: "Oooo! I bet that hurt!" S-man shifts guardedly forward. S-man performs a courageous whirling gash! S-man hits. It's a slight attack to Rocky's weapon arm. Rocky executes a courageous downward slice! Rocky connects with a minor smash to the torso. Rocky smiles scornfully at S-man and blusters: "Oooo! I bet that hurt!" Rocky tests his weapon. S-man performs a brave underhand slash! Rocky gracefully dodges the blow. S-man makes his move. S-man swings at Rocky. S-man's longsword strikes a minor strike to Rocky's right leg. Rocky is so worn out, he can hardly hold his weapon. S-man launches an attack at Rocky. Rocky is too weary to sidestep the bash. S-man delivers an insignificant stroke to the weapon arm. Rocky drops his foil! Rocky tries to conserve his power. Metal rings as the two contestants duel. Round 3. Rocky executes a bold slashing hit! Somehow, S-man leaps out of the way. S-man poises to attack. S-man performs a confident riposte thump! Rocky counters the blow. Rocky is weak with tiredness. S-man looks frightened by Rocky. Rocky is so out-of-breath, he can hardly see. S-man tries to locate a chance to launch an attack. The watchers don't like craven fighters. S-man executes a brave spinning gash! S-man hits. It's a slight thump to Rocky's ribs. Rocky surrenders! S-man has won the battle! The judges present a 5 gold piece prize to S-fellow. VANCE: And that finishes our bout of the day! It was a quick match, and murderous. I hope you found it more fascinating than I did. I thought that Rocky was devastated with fatigue, and was troubled with tiredness. On the other hand, S-man got in many strikes. I think that tells the story. Would you like to add anything, Dirk? DIRK: No. VANCE: Good to see you've lost none of your banter, Dirk. And that wraps it up for now. Good night, and keep your sword edge bright! OK, now for something a bit different (although the eventiual outcome was the same, I'll only include round 1 here): Round 1. Rocky moves forward to strike. Rocky launches an attack at Ynit. Rocky's foil strikes a slight stroke to Ynit's collarbone. Rocky makes a gesture at Ynit and crows: "You're last name isn't Badenov, is it?" Ynit executes a confident underhand hit! Rocky twists aside. Rocky looks anxious. Ynit gets ready to deliver a blow. Ynit makes a brave whirling thump! Ynit applies a trivial slice with his longsword to Rocky's buttocks. Rocky tries to locate a chance to swing. Ynit makes a courageous whirling cut! Ynit connects. It's an insignificant blow to the chest. Rocky shifts gingerly backward. Ynit looks anxious. Rocky makes his move. Rocky executes a brave downward cut! Ynit counters the attack. The combatants lock weapons for a second. Ynit executes a daring riposte smash! Rocky easily blocks the slash. Ynit directs a abusive smile at Rocky. Rocky swings but misses. Ynit seeks a chance to attack. Rocky looks sharp. Here, using the same strategy (same turn so it had to be) Rocky still "looks sharp" after various moving around and some non-action comments, 3 swings (1 of which hits), 2 successful dodges, and being hit twice. Slighlty more activity that the last one, but there he was exhasted before the end of the round (getting hit after the fact) and here he still "looks sharp". This is even a relatively low activity round 1 compared with some of the ones Rocky gets in - some have perhaps as much as twice as much stuff going on in them as this one does, after which he is somethimes still not shown as being tired. Randomness is needed, but this often seems a bit too random. --- Carl Referenced By Up