Re: OLYMPIA: New command ideas

From: desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins)

Date: Sat, 09 Jul 1994 23:29:39 +0000

Scott Turner <srt@sun-dimas.aero.org> writes:
> I hope you don't take this the wrong way, David, but if you would
> really write a compiler to turn a high-level programming language into
> Olympia IF-SKIP commands, then you're a very strange fellow.

I take this as a compliment.  I hope that's the right way.

> At any rate, I don't find this argument compelling.

It seems to me to be a pretty compelling argument against the specific
detailed proposal that was posted.  Of course I don't claim that it is a
complete rebuttal of the concept of increased capability to write
conditional orders.  I thought the idea of posting a specific proposal
was the opportunity to make specific points in response.

> Rich could simply limit commands to (say) 100 per noble per turn.

Well, speaking as someone who would make very extensive use of such
orders if they were available, I would still not like to see them.  It
already takes me a long time to prepare my orders, with just FLAG and
WAIT statements for communication.  If I could do arbitrary IF
statements, even with some sort of limit like the one you propose, I
would still end up planning for a lot of contingencies that I can't now.
Obviously, for example, it would make exploring new territory much more
complicated.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing the WAIT command eliminated, and a
simple SLEEP command (equivalent to the current WAIT TIME) substituted.
To me, such capabilities, while engaging for a time as one figures out
how to use them, can take away from the game.  Because they exist, my
philosophy is that I have to use them as best I can.  (If I'm not doing
the best job that I can with the capabilities that I'm given, there's no
point in playing.)  But ultimately that can become excessive if it means
that most time is spent on programming and not on strategizing.

Actually one of the things that to me seems the most engaging about
Olympia, and the most strategically rich, is the need to guess what is
likely to happen in the course of a turn and make plans which will work
despite various developments.  One could either make that too difficult
(by making the turns so long that circumstances could change too rapidly
in the course of a single turn) or too easy (by making the turns too
short, or by creating too flexible of a programming model so that
programming could replace planning and guesswork).

The current balance seems just about right to me.  The balance with free
(even if limited) IF commands seems to tip too far in the other
direction.  As I said, if the IF command took a day to execute, or some
other real cost, I think that would tilt the balance enough that it
would only be used when of significant value, and not to excess.

I'm reminded of the IBM PC computer game "Omega," in which, I believe,
conditional statements did take time to execute which you could then not
use for movement or firing.

> This topic got bandied around quite a bit in Oly I.  One of the better
> suggestions combined programming constructs with a restriction that
> only one noble could actually give commands.  All the other units had
> to be "programmed" to go off and handle tasks independent of the
> player's control.

Well, whether this is "better" depends on whether a viable game can
really be written that does this.  As with the IF command, I believe you
have to figure out how to place limits on the programming (so that the
game does not become just an exercise in writing more and more
complicated programs; while interesting that probably has limited
appeal) while keeping those limits from being artificial (and therefore
frustrating).  I think that remains unclear, although I certainly wish
luck to anyone who attempts it.

David desJardins
--
Copyright 1994 David desJardins.  Unlimited permission is granted to quote
from this posting for non-commercial use as long as attribution is given.

References

Re: OLYMPIA: New command ideas
srt@sun-dimas.aero.org (Scott Turner)
Fri, 08 Jul 1994 04:51:54 +0000
OLYMPIA: New command ideas
morrow@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Morrow)
Thu, 07 Jul 1994 01:42:14 +0000
Re: OLYMPIA: New command ideas
desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins)
Fri, 08 Jul 1994 03:13:12 +0000