Quest Digest 24/1/95 From: ">>-Josh->" <J.P.Gallagher@durham.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 02:00:38 +0000 This is the compilation of posts submitted by everyone who receives the Quest Digest from the e-mailing list I maintain. If you would like to be on this list and be amongst *the* most up to date discussions on the game, then just e-mail me at the above address. >>-Josh-> "...All I do is keep the beat, and bad company..." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- JPG> Okay, so it's very *early* on the 24th, but still it is the 24th nevertheless. Here it is again, the Quest digest! A quick recap on the basics for new people and Rogerio :) o *NO* posting to the entire list! All articles for entry should be sent to me in a seperate e-mail with all paragraphs initialed. o If anyone wants off the list at anytime, please say so! o All work here is the authors own property and may be reproduced only with their permission. The work as a whole is my property, but I don't care what you do with it! JPG> If you sent anything over the weekend and it hasn't appeared here, then this may be because my e-mail system was down for a long time and had to be rebooted. Sorry if there is any loss of work, but if you do have whatever didn't get here the first time, then please forward it so I can include it in the next digest. JPG> Now on with the posts! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Jan 95 12:33:51 MEZ From: Roland Ottl <ui99@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> RO> MONSTERS: I always wonder why the monsters encountered are so weak. I'm talking about the humanoid races. When you encounter dwarves thery are so easy that you begin to wonder why your own DFs are so powerful. Wouldn't it be better to have those dwarves being fighters, priests etc themselves with the same stas as your PCs ? Then you would think twice about attacking a bunch of 8 dwarves. How about elves. Elves are without doubt the most powerful mages...yet when you encounter them you never have to face any spells. I guess you get the idea. At least the humanoid creatures should have professions. RO> WOUNDS: Stefan made aslight mistake: Light hurts:1-5 damage, Injuries: 6-10, Wounds: 11-15, Serious Wounds: 16+. Furthermore, each character has what I call a Strength of Blow. This is the EXP gained when dealing out damage. However you only make this SOB-AR of foe damage. Believe me: this is sure. I'm a kind of maniac with rules, and I've wrenched my mind for several years to get behind this stuff. At least with my groups it's 100% true. RO> TRAINING: Training other groups would be fine. I also like the idea of this being more successful. As far as I know you only get about 2 points skill when training your PCs with other PCs...really not worth the orders. Anyway, if this training of other groups is implemented how do you think to handle the money transfer. Face the truth: there are some cheaters among us who would not pay for their training...paying in advance ? Well, then the trainer might not meet his part of the treaty. You see...I'm of the suspicious lot. RO> DUNGEONS: I'm playing quest now for more than 5 years and in this period I've been twice in a dungeon...and that very short. I find them very boring. Using whole turns just to explore a room ? I think this is a waste of orders. Therefore it would indeed be nice to see some improvements here. See Stefan's ideas for more. RO> ALIGNED CITIES: Very good idea. But I would like to see more difficulties for thieves in all towns. RO> THIEVES: I agree with several guys here. There should be another routine in the robberies. Right now you can rob and the worst that might happen is to be thrown out of town. We all have evaded this by making the last order a L (town number). So you see, it really isn't much of an improvement. Anyway, I think there should be the possibiltity of being caught, ie put to jail. Someone mentioned that the party would need to make a quest for the town...nice idea. I believe it should really be an annoying quest...not just simply killing a creature: that takes max 2 turns. Getting a certain equipment from another town is far more annoying. Alternatively you could charge the party with a HIGH sum. RO> FIGHTERS: It's true that fighters are the least interesting PCs in the game. My priests got their ace skill far earlier than the fighters...they just get more EXP. So once you have your skills at ace level you really don't need those fighters anymore. True, they have higher TO in the beginning, but there's always the strength skill. I don't see any real advantage of the fighters SK stat. It's said that damage in melee is dependant upon SK...so far I haven't noticed that my fighter does more damage than my priest (I made the mistake of having an EF, thus my HP has the same TO, same weapon etc). How about making the fighter SK a direct damage bonus (divided by ten) ? Or how about granting them additional attacks per round at high levels of proviciency (needing further weapon training of course !). I think this would make the fighter far more interesting. Right now I do prefer DP rather than DF ! RO> NPCs: I think they are quite useless right now. Agreed they do have something to say, but mostly it's not very helpful. I like that idea of the FOLLOWERS. This would certainly make oneself more concious of those folks. Having one follower for every member in the alliance sounds fair to me. Generally as mentioned above, I'd like to see more powerful NPCs. How about powerful mages with whom you might trade spells ? Travelling merchants who offer some useful items for cheaper prices ? These would be able to be robbed...but the merchants are guarded...uhoh...I see another type of quest coming: escorting a merchant. How about a mighty hero who challenges ONE of your members to a duell (though I don't know how to program that !). How about NPCs joining you for a certain quest. Thus you could hire a bunch of mercenaries for an especially difficult task, like those artifact quests mentioned in one of the latest Digests. RO> QUESTS: Generally I agree with Stefan. The current quests get a bit boring after some time. How about offering only 10 quests per party per turn. Thus you would be forced to move one after 10 completed quests. I've seen groups that hang around in certain towns for ages, robbing and making TQs and nothing else. Most of the time I try to force them out of the city: my thieves are so bad...there are always fights when I make the Steal order. Anyway, the TQ should be more specific. Why do you get the task to kill a monster from the temple of Novala ? She's supposed to be the goddess of peace. The current TQs on offer should be offered only in the warlike temples. Some suggestions: Baldor quests: travelling to a near village and cast a certain number of 103, because there's a plague spreading ? Molwanh: trying to force all parties out of town by casting lots of 603 (as far as I know you can't enter a suburb wrecked by insanity). Novala: Trying to steal, rob a certain precious item from a monster, merchant etc. Phyloqure: trying to retrieve a certain tome from the depths of a near dungeon. Ythcal: locating every NPC in town and killing him as part of a sacrifice ritual. I guess you get the idea. I also like that idea about those real high level quest, ie artifact quest etc. Retrieving a powerful object and donating it to your temple (thus you wouldn't need to invent new, powerful objects...the fame gained has to be enough) from a powerful monster (see BEARERS and CHAMPIONS mentioned in the last Digest) would be great indeed. ETC. (I leave now...I'm getting hungry !) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 12:26:06 +0000 (GMT) From: "R.Harrison" <cm3292@scitsc.wlv.ac.uk> JPG> I presume this was sent to me to go in the list... otherwise than that I don't know why it was sent to me! This was also sent to Steve as well. Steven Fairbrother & J.P.Gallagher, The fees of 30,000 and 50,000 gold for alliance Hq's are totaly out of order. They will specifically destroy the Brotherhood Alliance on Crasi-World. I have rung up Andy Smith to expostulate vigorously - But got no joy. I will also be writing to him, as will many other Alliance leaders. If Andy does not change his attitude, the Brotherhood will "go underground" i.e. continue as usual completly without reference to your computer program. Which would be a shame since you have obviously put a lot of time, thought and effort into it. Please give your thought, soonest. Yours sicerely Richard Harrison Brotherhood Information Officer For Rob Kennedy Lord High Brother 8 Church Meadow Alpington Norfolk NR14 7Ny -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:36:44 +0100 (MET) From: Cyrille Blaise <Cyrille.Blaise@scinfo.u-nancy.fr> One question for everyone : CB> Everybody's talking about great new stuff about alliance, but is there anyone who knows when this is going to be effective ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:34:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Chris Clarke <ctc@coventry.ac.uk> > >From: Niall Davis <davis@unixa.clp.ac.uk> > CC> I always use a high charisma HP (60+), some times I get 60 gps > orcs, others 680 Jackel. > > Well I always use a hight charisma HP as well 60 or 70+ but I also > use a luck spell beforehand. I've found that I get some stupid > done so many quests. I dont know if its a bug or something but > today I was offered a quest to buy an Item. Now I dont know > back. Anyone know how much a Religious Book costs?? I'm not > complaining aboput paying 5000. CC> About 5000 for a Religious Book is about right. OK, depending on how far you've got to go to fetch it. And how much your travelling costs will be. > CD> going on about limits to TQs and LQs > I object strongly to having the TQs capped, I do however agree > that they should be in some relation to the monster(s) hunted. CC> Yeah, but most of them are rubbish. I've got a 90 turn old group with seven fighters on ACE and 5 priests at Superb being offered 60 gps for one orc! Come on! > > JPG>The price for .... spell components need bringing down.... > > Sorry but here I disagree again. Mages can become phenominally CC> I disagree with ... erm I agree that spell prices need reducing. KJC Games 12 onwards (or maybe 14 onwards) all have all reagents at 40 to 60 gps. While in the earlier games prices can be over 120 gps. OK the powder pack was very welcome and I have groups which can afford the 750 gps per pack, but newer groups won't. Bring individual reagent prices down in line with the later games, I say. > JPG> I spent ages without money enough to develop my mage because I > somewhere about losing energy in casting would help stop mages doing too > much. CC> They do lose powerpoints when casting spells! I lost 55 power when I cast Teleport III (over 15 characters)! > >From: Paul Noble <editor@elbon.demon.co.uk> > PN> Is any of youz going to the Leeds Pub meet on the 4th of Feb? CC> What pubmeet? Eh? Explain ... > PN> RF metioned that perhaps it should be made inpossible for > strong parties to engage weaker ones, if this happened surely > we'd see a proliferation of pissy little groups just following > strong groups and robbing off them without consequence as we see > to a smaller consequence already in settlements. No group should > be immune to attack unless they cannot initiate combat as well. CC> Absolutely. I agree newer groups need protection from hostile older groups, but if they initiate combat against a friendly older group just to gain experience they deserve a kicking. > PN> Perhaps with the introdution of flagged immune groups then > city combat should be relaxed so full combat and spell casting CC> No. Settlements should be safe areas. It is possible to initiate combat in towns, but they should be as safe as possible. You go into towns to change armour and recuperrate - not to get attacked. > PN> RF also says that Fighters have little place in the world as > it stands, perhaps the fighters from the party should be allowed CC> Wanna take my groups on, hand to hand <EG> > THE RKM > NB> Does anyone remember these guys? I had something to do with them > when I last played, and was wondering if anyone out there had any > stories regarding them and the good ole days. It would be great to > hear from you. CC> Yes, I remember. Attacking new groups, doing the old "Join us or die" routine. Being kicked off the G8 editorship because you would prefer to print the messages/ads for your allies than your enemies. Your behaviour was the perfect example of why newsletter editors shouldn't be members of an alliance. The only thing bigger than your ego was other players' distaste of you. But I'm not one to hold a grudge, you understand ... > Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 11:17:35 MEZ > >From: Kai Hortmann CHBRIN5@NYX.UNI-KONSTANZ.DE > > What is the best way to increase a fighters skill? My fighters seem to CC> Only way to increase skill is to have lucky hits. Buy Weapons Skill to increase ability (shows under I99). -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:39:36 +0000 (GMT) From: "Chris M. Dickson" <chris.dickson@keble.oxford.ac.uk> CMD> I don't know if this is general policy or just a special favour (I suggest the former rather than the latter) but did you know that it is possible to request whereabouts in Kharne your start-up party is? I have sent off for a start-up party in a new game, and specified that I would like it to be in the south-west. The start came today and it was situated in the city on the very south-western tip! A friend asked a very similar thing and he got a start-up in the same city... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 17:18:48 GMT From: Paul Noble <editor@elbon.demon.co.uk> PN> Sorry, the pub meets on the 18th =) my mistake. As to the talker meet, great! Will you pay my phone bill? PN> I talked to the infamous James Mintram (he threatened to get a PC and join us! =Q ) and he had hassled KJC (wow!), they said they where implimenting the alliance routines today! The info sheet about it will be typed up early next week. James says he'll fax the stuff to me, as soon as that happens I send it in. PN>About the immunity party flag, will it stop them casting spells on other groups and also stop other groups casting upon them? If not it's severly flawed, you could just Black Void a party to dust. PN>Has anybody had a group utterly wiped out down to the last man? I'd be curious to see if you could perform any orders. PN> Concerning the Alliance headquarters could you rob your own shop? PN> Oi JPG! you missed out my RKM query! Or is it policy not to discuss the groups of others? Just in case you missed it I'll reprint. What happened to the G1 RKM group named Crimson Death? If this has already been printed then excuse my utter stupidity in missing it. JPG> Sorry Paul! I didn't mean to miss it out... sometimes I make these editorial mistakes... well, it's in now anyway! PN> The stupidest things I have done in quest are: A) Went after a Fire Elemental with only CMs for protection, a 30% flee factor and after I lost 2 guys I realized I hadn't inputted my TQ acceptance order properly, it was for 720 per person, my 3 TQ. B)I gave James Mintram my phone number. C)Joined an alliance, promptly went to a hot spot, was accused of being a spy and then blatting a member. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 19:43:32 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@stud.unit.no> Changes I would like to see in Quest. Combat: The way the battles are handled in Quest as of today has two major faults: 1. 'Missile-and-mages-only' groups with a low flee factor is virtually to fight for fighter based groups - one round of missiles and magic and they're gone before the fighters can get to them. 2. By using Steal instead of Engage a fighter based group can quite easily circumvent another party's magic and long-range offensive power. Now, it may seem as if these two faults more or less cancels each other - but that is not the cause. While the hit-and-run tactics work for both planned and unplanned encounters, the botched-steal must be planned. Also, the botched-steal tactic is still inefficient against hit-and-run groups as they'll take off before you can do any serious damage to them. Now, to make the hit-and-run tactic somewhat less efficient, I suggest the following changes to the combat system: Whenever there has been initiated missile fire and magical attacks, the party that remains the longest on the battle ground gets a free melee attack (while the enemy turn tail and run), and a free missile attack in open terrain. (Perhaps the free melee attack should be negated in jungle, swamp and mountains?.) This way, the hit-and-run groups will have to endure at least one round of melee. To prevent the Steal order of being misused too much I suggest the following changes: Whenever a battle occur because of a botched steal order, on the first melee round the thief/thieves from the offending party fights alone against the entire target group. The rest of the party must of course have hid somewhere nearby (10 axe wielding dwarven fighters in plate sneaking through the enemy camp? Not very likely) and must use that first round to get into the fray. This would make it a lot more risky to use the steal order 5-6 times in a row. Parties without thieves should not be allowed to even contemplate issuing a Steal-order. While I'm at it - the ambush order is pretty useless as of today. It's just too difficult to spot another group, anticipate their movements, and get in front of it in time. Perhaps when the alliances are implemented it may be possible to target any member of a certain alliance with this order? All you'd have to do would be to find a nice spot on the road to the city where their HQ is. Follow Road order Yep - I'll just sign my name on the list. After all it can't be THAT hard to program (Just take the 8 sectors surrounding the party, starting with the one in the direction they want to go and cycle through them clockwise until you find a road-sector they haven't just passed through. Move them into this sector and repeat the procedure. If there isn't any more untraveled roads, check for cities.- Sure it'll ignore crossroads, and you may end up in a town or two you didn't really want to visit (and continue past a couple that you did want to visit) - but I believe most Questers can live with that.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jan 95 20:57:20 MET From: Edwin Lambregts <J.W.P.Lambregts@kub.nl> >>From: Christian de la Rosa Nielsen <delarosa@login.dknet.dk> > I would like to add my suggestions to the debate on how to > liven up Quest. I suggest adding new types of NPC's: (in order of > toughness, toughest first) Bearers, Champions, and Followers. > >BEARERS >CHAMPIONS >FOLLOWERS EL: Congratulations I really *like* these ideas. I believe these suggestions are the best I have heard of so far! Guess they are quite hard to implement though.... Does anyone have any idea? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 14:57:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Rogerio Fung <l41186@alfa.ist.utl.pt> JPG> Guess you all saw this bit... what is the differnce between payin's and letters of credit??? umm..just to mention 4 those outside Uk that the address is jumper.mcc.ac.uk 3214 and that I am to in there(sometimes anyway) RF> on Dean's trouble with temple quests, I believe it depends on the type of terrain you're sorrounded by. In G14, my Fallen Angels, with 22 turns, have just completed one TQ to kill a kresh and received 500gps. I bought one on the next turn(this week's) and got another TQ worth 560 to kil a harpy. It happens that I am in Daving(next stop 4 the evil BK-someone help me!) and the city is pratically surrounded by mountains and forests. In my Predators in G1, they have only fields and clear terrain around the city, and with 16 turns but the same amount of experience (taking these last points in G14) and all they can get is 160 gps worth TQ's...so either the terrain or the age... RF> umm..I never heard of 2 or 3 P0 working...I did that once and only one of the orders did work! So I would like to hear more on this... RF>I hear that the attitude orders and the NO GROUP ATTACK order is already implemented in G9, although I dont have these confirmed... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 16:28:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Allan Hooper <A.O.Hooper@herts.ac.uk> > >From: Roger Littlefair <roj@m-net.arbornet.org> > Why should members donate to an alliance`s fund? AH> I think its called 'loyalty' <grin> but seriously , if you dont get enough out of an alliance to justify giving money to it then surely the alliance isnt worth it. > - - By paynig money and staying a member over time they could > get a status such as commander, advertiser etc... with new orders. AH> This already happens with some alliances - when the leader can no longer keep control of all aspects of the alliance and gives some control to a trusted player. > Alliance options/services? > - Possible members at the opposite end of an island to the HQ > should be able to buy a travel option to take them to the nearest HQ. AH> This is a great idea - it would save orders to go straight to your HQ than city hopping across Kharne. > - One member can be given SPY status and be able to join more than > one alliance as a member. AH> I dislike this a lot - being a spy would involve decieving another *player* unless of course all messages were done in character which is unlikely to be the case. > - Quests in an alliance could include killing a member of the > oppoition as determined by the specific attitudes set. AH> Members of an alliance should already ready to fight and die for their alliance . Leaders could pay groups for terminations but the word Quest implies some experience gain . I must say the improved accounts for groups would be great as a means of starting mercenarys and bounty hunters. > - Is it 2000GP for a mage skill shop in your HQ? Are 4 players > going to buy every turn? I don`t think so! AH> Groups tend to buy multiple trainings in one turn so what could happen is you write to the shop owner and ask them to put the service up for sale for the next turn . > - Money could come from the alliance protecting shops from > thieves. Banks offer more than inns. New prospect of being worthwhile > staying in a settlement and gives NPC thieves something to do rather than > rob me! AH> With the warlike nature of most alliance I'm not so sure they wont pay alliances *not* to locate in their city ;-). > New Island? > - The new island for good players could be located 14 sectors from > the main Island, so only groups able to cast Teleport III can get there, > and should be good enough to stay. AH> Thats the best way yet I have heard of introducing a new island.I dont like the new island idea however as it would have to be made so that it isnt just a way for tough groups to get tougher quicker and if there was a good chance of a character mortality - would you go? > New players? > - Groups should be rated on an average skill bases. If one groups > Ave Sk is more than 10 over the opponent then the weaker group runs > without losses. This means that Total Death groups fight each other > only, because a group of 10 Total Deaths in theory will have an ave sk > more than 10 over a group with fighters. AH> I agree some system is needed to stop outclassed groups getting crushed - but the above system wouldnt work for two reasons I can think of . First thieves also tend to have 99sk so if a group had a few of them they would get destroyed by the Total Death group. Second, why not have a group of fighters if you *know* you wont be attacked by the Total Death groups but could totally stuff any other groups in melee combat. > - They don`t know what an alliance offers, and just join one that > looks good over it`s 4 line ad. Alliances should send an A4/5 page of > alliance news which can be bought and sent via KJC to the player. AH> I agree - alliances should include a history (if they have one) alignment , friends + enemies , which land it has claims on , a list of members and so on. I like the idea of all groups in an alliance having an alliance standard/flag included in their group description . > >From: Kai Hortmann <CHBRIN5@NYX.UNI-KONSTANZ.DE> > About getting good temple quests: Is it possible that this depends on > the terrain around the city where you get the quest? AH> It sounds good to me but I dont think its right tho as I have had TQ's in a city surrounded by heavy forest and some in the middle of mountains and hills and still got the usual poor quests - perhaps I'm just unlucky. I'm going to check out the alignment theory by being very close to a god when I buy a quest from one of their temples. > >From: Rogerio Fung <l41186@alfa.ist.utl.pt> > to mjl > if you got 600 xps in 20 turnss, then you I dont know what to tell you. > In my 14 turn in bdS I had 2000 xps, and 3000+ gold, so, somethings wrong > in here... AH> If you really need cash just borrow a 1000gp's from a money lender and just dont pay it back. Nothing bad happens (yet) apart from you cant borrow money ever again, although I'd wait for the flood of people telling me I'm wrong first before you try this. > >From: Niall Davis <davis@unixa.clp.ac.uk> > > JPG>The price for .... spell components need bringing down.... > > Sorry but here I disagree again. Mages can become phenominally > powerful and once trained use only a small fraction of their > spell regularly. It should take some investment to develop > and maintain a character who can cast the very poerful high > level mag spells. > JPG> I spent ages without money enough to develop my mage because I > needed lots of other stuff. I wasn't the most successful new party, but > I was considering dropping my mage as he would cost so much. This is why > I think they are prohibitively high for new players. The idea voiced > somewhere about losing energy in casting would help stop mages doing too > much. AH> Possibly the price of powders should be dropped but high power spells eat up skill points when cast , that way new groups can use the low power spells easily and the high power mages need training now and again to replenish their skill back up again . A lot of the mages power comes from having multiple engagements so perhaps you should only be able to engage the same group once per turn. > >From: Paul Noble <editor@elbon.demon.co.uk> > PN> RF also says that Fighters have little place in the world as > it stands, perhaps the fighters from the party should be allowed > to enter an arena in the city and fight against monsters and > other groups fighters for substaintial rewards, no missile or > magic, thus the mag/missile groups would not want to take this on > and probably couldn't as they have few fighters in the first > place. AH> In cities the S order works wonders for attacking other players purely in melee combat . I would like to see spell combat removed from settlements altogether (what is a group supposed to be doing when it is getting blasted ? are they saying "oh we won't rip their lungs out coz its not our turn") - instead have an arena for group v's group fights with full use of magic/missiles . This would require a challenge order and an accept challenge order - of course battles would appear in the newspaper but so would challenges to blacken the names of those who chicken out. Perhaps you could have groups champions fight it out but it would have to be to the death to stop friendly groups chalenging each other just for exp/cash. > >From: Neil Benson <9365040@mull.sms.ed.ac.uk> > Anyone else intrested in a discussion into guilds, themes and using > them to role-play? AH> The alliance I have just joined is not just a gathering of evil (theres not many of us left) its aims include ,role-playing to get away from all the power-gaming by giving massive input to the newsletter , slagging off good groups who use evil mirracles (I would like to see the Devote order that enables you to do TQ at the relevant temples but would stop you casting miracles of the 3 gods opposite) or claim a great victory when several good groups attack a new group with a slightly evil sounding name etc. Personally I often use one of my characters in letters and write in character with a bit from me explaining underneath - all Kharne will know of Ellspeth Grayswandir , Demon Knight of Ythcal and Destroyer of the Light. AH> Most people on the list agree role playing is inportant so a discussion would be most welcome. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- JPG> Well, that's the lot for the moment. I have another thing to bring up before the end though. Erik Cedergren has a Quest homepage, but has little time to run it. I think it's great that we have a WWW page, but he needs people to help write for it. Have a look at it and see what you think... the address is... http://belsebub.ics.lu.se/~ecgn/Quest.html JPG> Erik is pretty short of time at the moment, so says that any help would be appreciated. JPG> Lastly I would like to offer my apologies to anybody I still haven't gotten back to after a private e-mail. I don't have much time at the moment, but when I do I shall get all the back issues sorted and put somewhere sensible so I can send them to people. I will do it as soon as possible and tell you all when I am ready to send them. Sorry for the delay! JPG> Meanwhile... Quest on people! >>-Josh-> "...All I do is keep the beat, and bad company..." Up