BSE-L Digest 13 From: kerry@freeside.fc.net (Kerry Harrison) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 1995 23:12:14 +0000 Beyond the Stellar Empire Discussion List <BSE-L@consensus.com> BSE-L Digest 13 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: SMS colony protection by Derek Smith <Derek_Smith.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com> 2) Re: BSE, the stinkin' starcaptain thing again... by Derek Smith <Derek_Smith.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com> 3) Re: BSE-L digest 12 by Ron.Kleinman@Eng.Sun.COM (Ron Kleinman) 4) Starcaptain Rule by Phil Krauskopf <PKRAUSKOPF@FALCON.AAMRL.WPAFB.AF.MIL> 5) Re: SMS colony protectio by Kevin Curnutt <76114.3576@compuserve.com> 6) Re: Starcaptain Rule by Richard William Chiang <richc@uclink2.berkeley.edu> 7) reply to PFM by Jackmyster@aol.com 8) Money by Richard William Chiang <richc@uclink2.berkeley.edu> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Feb 95 9:49:31 ES From: Derek Smith <Derek_Smith.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com> To: Kevin Curnutt <76114.3576@compuserve.com> Cc: BSE-L <BSE-L@consensus.com> Subject: Re: SMS colony protection Message-ID: <9502021448.AA08771@internet1.lotus.com> Kevin Curnutt wrote: --------------------------- Derek, >>Sure. That's what our merchant pilots do. However, what our COLONY GOVERNORS **NEED** is warship protection. Hence the SMS needs warships as well. Why don't you stop side-stepping that?<< Why don't you let the colony governors rely on the government (whose space the colony is in) to protect them? Kevin --------------------------- If that was sufficient, I'd be happy to. It's not. I don't know how long you've been playing, but if it's more than (I'll be generous) a year, then you already knew that very well. --Derek ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 95 14:40:51 EDT From: Derek Smith <Derek_Smith.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com> To: BSE-L <BSE-L@consensus.com> Subject: Re: BSE, the stinkin' starcaptain thing again... Message-ID: <9502021942.AA07201@internet1.lotus.com> <OOC Mode still ON because I never turned it off the last time...> Russ Boggs wrote: >Derek, >(please allow me to jump in with my _opinion_ ....) >Regarding your KTS vs SMS situation: I see your point, but I think >you're creating an artificial situation. Who are the KTS and why are >they so mad at the SMS? I made them up for the purposes of demonstrating my hypothetical scenario. >Do the SMS have no allies? Of course we have allies. Some are allied with people who might someday be our enemies. They would be bound to stay neutral. Others are afflicted by the inability to acquire sufficient warships themselves. >Even none that can be >>recruited<< by the proverbial arm and leg? >If the SMS are in such a mismatch, then they better start using >diplomacy, not pulsars. I *always* use diplomacy. And I *never* use Pulsars 8^), but that's just because pulsars suck the big bonzooka. >And I have no problem with the game mechanics driving players >towards diplomacy. Well, truth be told, I have a problem with game mechanics driving players. Period. I'd much rather play a game where it was the other way around. >The scenario you're talking about is a lot like the UK versus Germany >in either WWI or WWII. From a gaming point of view, both are >interesting scenarios. Like the Germans, the SMS could not allow its >fleet to get in a battle where they could lose the whole thing. Play >it that way. Then it does us little good against any serious enemy attack. >And before you start to get irritated with my attitude, I have/had no intention of getting irritated with your attitude. I just wonder why it's mostly people from warship building affiliations that have it. That's a pattern that makes me nervous. >remember that I was in the WCE/SAM wars. At least the start of them. >But I bailed because I felt that I was in an unwinnable scenario >trying to run DDs and CLs against the SAM 110 hull ships. I felt >like I was the SMS in your SMS vs. KTS scenario. However, the >players that I left behind in the WCE managed to beat the SAMs (or >at least break even). So maybe things weren't all that hopeless - >maybe I shouldn't have quit (...... naw, it was time to go (g).) I don't remember, that was before my time. But what you describe is what I predict if this goes through. >As I get back in the game, one of the reasons that I rejoined is >that the GMs are trying to limit the bloated scale that everything >has reached since I left. I _like_ the starcaptain rule. But there >might be a couple of tough years until the grandfathering effect >leaves and fleets get down to reasonable sizes. "Reasonable" sizes is subject to interpretation. You may say that it means that ships like DD, SC, and CL make a difference in war again. That will NEVER happen. Colonies eat Man-O-War for lunch. DD would be appetizers. I define "reasonable" as the size necessary to adequately deal with the grown size of colonies. On all three aspects: Attack, Defense, and Trade. >As far as I can see, the game was designed for 30-40 hull ships, and >then the whole thing kept growing and growing and growing ....... I >really think that something needs to be done. Maybe, but this isn't it. A 40 hull Merchant ship ain't gonna mean squat supporting a big colony. So you need to run many of them. Then you quit because the game costs too much to play. >By the way, I've got no problem with your Ensign-at-the-tiller of a >Dreadnought - it's a good idea. But there still remains the problem >of having huge fleets of huge ships wandering around the Periphery. >I still think that there's a problem with the status quo. Well, I proposed that as a way to give the COMPANIES a chance. The trouble is that there are MANY more Alien players out there than IMP players, and enough [potentially] hostile ones, that the IMPerials are going to need the companies to be able to handle a significant portion of their own defense. Sure, they'll respond to violations of Imperial Law and territory, but how quickly? And unless they're filthy rich a serious confederation of hostile, Warship-building races/affiliations could BUY a victory using $$. I can't imagine BSE being fun for me under those conditions, or for many Company players. >--Russ Boggs --Derek Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:09:24 -0800 From: Ron.Kleinman@Eng.Sun.COM (Ron Kleinman) To: BSE-L@consensus.com Subject: Re: BSE-L digest 12 Message-ID: <9502022009.AA10870@shadows.Eng.Sun.COM> >>BTW, your feeble attempts at threats will not work for the simple reason >>that the QSN membership is not listening to your lies (ie they aren't on >>email) This is not completely true. Some of us QSN are indeed on email .. but we are still not listening to your lies. Nicholas Van Rijn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 16:24:19 -0400 From: Phil Krauskopf <PKRAUSKOPF@FALCON.AAMRL.WPAFB.AF.MIL> To: bse-l@consensus.com Subject: Starcaptain Rule Message-ID: <sf3107c0.001@FALCON.AAMRL.WPAFB.AF.MIL> I suspect that if a company wants to begin research on capital warship construction, RTG may well allow it (has anyone asked?), although it might be more costly for a company than it be would for a government. However, this is as it should be. Historically, companies have never had the ability to build any type of ship. To suddenly allow them to pick and choose which capital warships to build would be completely nonsensical, in a role-playing context. In fact, this type of magic hand-waving is exactly why BSE failed under ABM. Every affiliation has its good points and bad points. Personally, I'd LOVE to be able to build Baseships and Cargo Masters; however, by choosing the WCE I accepted that I wouldn't be able to do so (unless we reverse engineer them, of course <g>). I'd LOVE to be able to jump in 10 TUs; I'd LOVE to get a +20 MU hull shift; and I'd LOVE to have any number of other special abilities. By choosing the WCE, I chose my special abilities. If I want to change them, I have no problem with doing it in-game. Granted, I am indeed in a ship-building affiliation now. However, I spent a number of years in the AFT, under exactly the conditions you describe. Warships were difficult to get (the IMPs weren't too interested in giving us a break), and what few ships were available cost us a ridiculous number of stellars. We managed, though, without having to have a huge fleet. In fact, after I left the PFM declared war on the AFT, and Dave Isaac won that war with a vastly inferior fleet, by playing smart. Finally, I want to say that taking out these mega-colonies with a warfleet is a lot easier said than done. At Soul Cage the Qumans (regardless of what they intended to do) sent in 24 capital warships, and then 40 capital warships; and were unable to make a serious dent in Soul Cage's defenses. Soul Cage had just turned class 7 at the time. Smaller colonies would be much more difficult to defend, granted, but the core of any affiliation is safe from any except the most obsessive assault from the air (or a fleet fo 75 dreadnoughts). ------------------------------ Date: 02 Feb 95 17:26:21 EST From: Kevin Curnutt <76114.3576@compuserve.com> To: Derek Smith <Derek_Smith.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>, <BSE-L@consensus.com> Subject: Re: SMS colony protectio Message-ID: <950202222620_76114.3576_HHB65-2@CompuServe.COM> Derek, >>I don't know how long you've been playing, but if it's more than (I'll be generous) a year, then you already knew that very well.<< Well, being that I've been in the game a grand total of about 3 weeks, I'd say you're being more than generous. <g> Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:59:53 -0800 (PST) From: Richard William Chiang <richc@uclink2.berkeley.edu> To: BSE-L@consensus.com Subject: Re: Starcaptain Rule Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9502021504.A3696-0100000@uclink2.berkeley.edu> I think Phil had some very good points in his email. I just disagree with one thing. I think the whole idea that governments should have an advantage when building warships is silly. In this game, it is really easy just to call yourself a government and claim that you deserve some advantage. I think the rules for warship designs and ship designs should be consistent from affliation to affliation. Of course, all in game advantages would hold. For example, having a ship is important to being able to reverse engineer it. As for the starcaptain rule which was the original point of this discussion, I think that this rule will actually hurt shipbuilding races more as they can not just build a bunch of ships and get them burned and then build some more. I think RTG attempt to prevent people just buying power through spending money in the game a good idea. Non ship building affliations will be at a disadvantage as they can not just build a bunch of warships now to be grandfathered in. Maybe RTG can give non ship building affliations extra time to get things grandfathered in. It will be up to the afliation to decide if this is a priority for them. The important thing is to reward players for experience and affliations for having a large player base. There was a suggestion of the incompetent rule (ie ensigns kinda suck driving a Dreadnought). I don't find anything particularly wrong with that idea. I personally believe that all this argument stems from the inadequatcy of ships to deal with the large colonies (whether it be supplying them or attacking them). Part of that problem is that colony growth has been very high. Another part of the problem is that there aren't enough players in BSE. Sure it would be great to be able to supply your colony with just your two ships, but this game should be about markets and trading and lots of players running around trying to meet the needs of these colonies. Richard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:05:12 -0500 From: Jackmyster@aol.com To: BSE-L@consensus.com Subject: reply to PFM Message-ID: <950202190117_11278373@aol.com> Terminus Prime: Our races have had two encounters. One where you attacked and destroyed an unarmed FGZ scout vessel, no honor in battle there. The second where the FGZ fleet leveled the offending colony and captured it...had it not been for the intervention of the "subspecies" known as QSN and SMS...QSN Suomi would still be FGZ. In short, I have not seen any "honor" in any of the PFM's actions...In fact, the PFM have not had any conflicts other than an attack at the SSL colony Romp, under a "true" Honorable Leader and a few engagements with the EKN (in their space). Perhaps the PFM should remain in the Per. and take lessons from the IMP as to how to gain Honor (and wage war?). The FGZ will not give "prior" warning as to our attack, as this is OUR profession and joy. We have not met our match in space combat. Your "race" will never learn of the Baseships, as they are "above" your understanding... The PFM are beneath my contempt as the only message to the FGZ foretold of an impending attack against FGZ NeverWhere...in short, I have no honor for you or your race, and the PFM have not proved themselves worthy of any further communications. At least the Qumans can do what they foretell. Lord Den of Earth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:19:18 -0800 (PST) From: Richard William Chiang <richc@uclink2.berkeley.edu> To: BSE-L@consensus.com Subject: Money Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9502021613.B3696-0100000@uclink2.berkeley.edu> I have been pondering over the dilemma of stellars in the game. On one hand, there is a deflationary pressure as stellars disappear from the game. I think the idea of depot colonies is great. In fact, I think it should be expanded. How about each affliation has a fleet from the Inner Empire or whatever come to the colony of that's affliation choice to purchase goods of whatever sorts it wants. It gives the affliation a chance to make a bunch of stellars and as well as a job of protecting the fleet while it is in the wild periphery. In fact, they should add some of this stuff as a game reward. IE you find an alien race and convince it to come to xxxx location once a year to buy shit from you. Both these ideas make sense in a roleplaying standpoint. What other purpose do we affliations have other than being exploited by the Inner Empire (they are called colonies for gosh sake) or having to sate the demands oof the people (in the case of alien races). There may be other rewards aside from just the stellars too. In the case of the Qumans, maybe if we provide enough of xxx goods, the home planet will supply more resources of a sort for example. On the other hand, stellars are kinda useless in the game past a certain point. Markets are not used as effectively as they should be. I personally think RTG should offer a complete colony market guide once a year or two times to stimulate trade. Have you ever tried to buy anything of significance with stellars?? It is tough. It is barter all the way. So I have an idea that would make stellars valuable to even the most powerful of people. How about having neat items that the depot colonies will sell or deliver for outrageous prices. I would hope that the Inner Empire's technology would be somewhat higher than the Periphery. This might make it unfair as it would just be first come first serve. Maybe for the really neat items you could have an auction. Or better yet, how about a lottery? That way everyone has a chance but buying a lot of tickets sure helps. Although I bet a bunch of IND ships might be waiting for them to pick up their prize. How about starting off with a Holoid Teleporter?? They are suppose to be from the Inner Empire. I never understand why I couldn't Fed Ex for one from the Inner Empire. I bet that would make stellars valuable to everyone, but espcially the powerful ones with lots of stuff. It is realistic too as what really occupies powerful people in real life except getting more power and collecting unusual and neat stuff. Boy, I would love to see the fire sales if a Holoid Teleporter was for lottery. Richard ------------------------------ End of BSE-L Digest 13 ********************** Up