Quest Digest 9/2/95, Part2 From: ">>-Josh->" <J.P.Gallagher@durham.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 18:50:55 +0000 (JPG> Start of part2) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 07 Feb 1995 09:25:02 +0100 From: Martin Lind Jans <mjxmi@carlbro.dk> MLJ> I have 2 solutions to solving the hit and tactics : 1: Set a minimum flee-factor at 20 % and raise the rating of highlevel mages. This would mean that the mage-party had to stay because their flee-factor was too low compared to the value of the mages. This would also mean that new partys still could flee rampaging high-level partys. 2: Attacking partys have to stay for at least 2 rounds of combat. If a newcomer is stupid enough to attack a tough party, they should pay the price. They still could flee if they where attacked. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 12:00:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Allan Hooper <A.O.Hooper@herts.ac.uk> > > PN> In G6 two old groups were reduced to 1 char, both had=20 > > trouble getting the last char dead, Stefan do you care to tell=20 > > of the Twilights? > AH> I dont really object to a group getting wiped out if they stay in a= =20 > warzone after being in several battles losing characters in each one and= =20 > they dont have the sense to run away . AH > Arrgh! When I read this through again I thought it sounded as if I=20 beleived Stefans group deserved to die or Stefan didnt have the=20 sense to pull his group out . Ooops sorry ! if anyone took it that=20 way . What I *ment* to do was use Twilights as another example of an= =20 experianced group getting KO'd . Sorry once again.... Thanks to Stefan for his advice on Group V's Group fights too . -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Feb 95 16:35:21 +0100 From: Ragnar Fyri Here are some thoungts about orders to follow roads. Programmer Steven has explained at some length in "Quest Digest" that it can't be done the way it's done in Monster Island because Quest roads a) curve more, b) cross each other, and c) sometimes end in the middle of nowhere. Okay, I'll accept that it can't be done the MI way. But let's be fair, brother <EG> - just because something can't be done in one particular way doesn't mean it can't be done at all! So without further ado, here is my suggestion for a "Follow Quest Road" order. The format should be something like M 9 <starting direction> <distance> This has the advantage that it uses the same letter code as a normal Move and so doesn't occupy another letter (MI does it the same way - T for Travel is used both for moving normally and following roads. The difference lies in the parameter which is simply one or two directions for normal moves, and 9 followed by one of two directions for following roads). The 9 replaces the original direction parameter and signals that this is a Follow Road order (just like in MI). The second parameter is the starting direction, and the third shows how far you want to move. So you don't have to guess at the direction to keep moving along unknown roads. If you are following a road that is known to cross another, write one order to move to= =20 the crossroads and another to continue from there. The algorithm for following roads should go something like this: For the first move: Check if there is a road leading in the given direction. If there is, follow it and continue below. If not, stop here and give the appropriate message (gtam). For the following moves: Check if the player wants to move further. If not, stop here & gtam. Check if there are unused movement points left. If not, stop here & gtam. If OK so far, mark the direction the group came from, then scan all other directions and count the roads leading away. If there is exactly one road=B9 leading away, follow it and loop back to "For the following moves". If the road ends, stop here & gtam. If the road splits, ditto. Well, there you have it - described in 13 lines (oops!) and programmable in a few more. I could program it in ten minutes, and Steven could probably do it with onehand tied behind his back. (And Steven, if you do this I promise I'll never make jokes about your name again!) Yes, that's right - when you come to a fork or the end of the road you just stop moving; what's so strange about that?? On another note, QD also contains quite a lot of discussion about head- quarters and particularly the cost of starting "another" HQ. What I worry most about here is the nomenclature. Look up "headquarter" in the dictio- nary and you will (hopefully) find that it's nonsense to talk about two or more "headquarters". If you have a HQ and then start another office (or whatever), that one becomes a branch office! And if you insist on making the BO your new HQ, then the old HQ becomes a BO! (No? Okay, when was the last time your country had two Kings? (or, in case this should be read by an American, two Presidents...)) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paulo <l41497@ci.ist.utl.pt> Message-Id: <9502072034.AA27223@ci.ist.utl.pt> IGO> As my initials are the same as my brother's (Rogerio Fung). I have cha= nged mine to IGO which is the name I always login in the net anyway...=3D) Anyone who wishes to talk to me can do so at <jumper.mcc.ac.uk 3214> which = is a talker where I'm usually am...and sometimes Roger Littlefair. IGO> The new order is supposed to protect new parties from quiting the game in its first turns. I believe that a party with 50 turns should not be able= erform such order 'cannot be hurt' as it already has some experience and b= e a=20 veteran, therefore handle some loses and fights. So what do you say? A turn limit to the use of the 'no attack order'? If not some ppl can make a real unfair use of it...such as calling names in the newsletter. Or a real nasty ,unfair, sad use would it be that all parties use that order in the beginni= ng grow in power and when reach 100 turns start beatting hell out of the other parties...but who would this party beat if all others were using that same strategy? It would be real sad! To Allan Hopper IGO> If you want to go to a warzone, you must be ready to take some losses and run away (buy a journey) to fight another day...be careful that you can= l lose a lot of characters if you run into one of that mage parties! IGO> The mage Vs fighter debate. First of all don't take power from the mag= es, it's a lot better to give power to the fighters. If you take power from the mages it would be like that cut in the Thieves...a lot of ppl out there hav= e lots of mages that took years improve, taking of their power from one day t= o another wouldn't be fair! Analysing a mage. Anyone can see that they take longer to reach decent leve= ls and cost lots of money to! So, why shouldn't they be more powerful? Have yo= u ever heard 'Mind over matter' ? Now a fighter...big, mean, lots of thoughness (therefore harder to kill) an= d no brains (no wonder they are weak)...A fighter is a lot cheaper to improve an= d to=20 get...just recruit for 1000 Gp and you get yourself a killing machine pront= o. Maybe coz of this speed to get good characters is why so many ppl turn them= selves to fighters and run away from mages like hell. Solution...improve fighters. Such as toughness having more influence in the= =20 success of spells (at least matter spells)...but in the other hand...mage s= kill should also have a place in spell casting. The solution lays in the balance between this two factors...and armour should also count. I heartly disagree in rising the manna spent to 50. If a death spell costs 50 to cast. A good mage would only cast one each 4 or 5 turns...a bit unfai= r to say the least...maybe a rise to 10-20 would be ok. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 23:08:41 +0100 (MET) From: "Christian de la Rosa Nielsen" <delarosa@login.dknet.dk> HIT-AND-RUN NO WAY! To discourage wankers from using the flee-factor-0%-hit-and-run tactic I suggest the following changes: Divide the magic phase into 2 seperate phases, one for magic cast on your own party (PO) and one for magic cast on your enemies (PE). Then introduce a random element to the amended combat sequence (PO, PE, missiles, melee); PO, PE, and missiles will each occur 50= % of the time, while melee will always occur (assuming that either partys fle= e factor hasn't been exceeded).In this way mages and priests, while powerful, will be a little unreliable. This should allow fighters to bask in the spotlight once more. THOU SHALT NOT STEAL... If a thief is caught in the act of robbing a shop, the city guard should confiscate all his belongings and take his money as a bribe not to chop his hands off. They then expel the thief and his friends from the city,and tell them not to come back or else. The party will then be barred entry into the settlement for 10 turns. If he unsuccesfully robs another party in a settlement, they will grab his loot and hand him over to the city guards (same results as above). If he is caught robbing in the wilderness, the offended party should each be given one free attack each against the thief, before going into normal melee. MONEY-LENDERS NETWORK [NOTE: As this "$-rule" is a rule change I feel *very* strongly about, I wi= ll at regular intervals endorse it. If you think I get too annoying feel free = to flame me, or better yet, critizise the rule in a constructive manner.] If the money-lenders of Kharne can swap info about how much money people ow= e them across huge distances almost at the speed of light, then why can't the= y transfer money from one account to another? I realize that to prevent cheating, both the concerned parties would have to belong to different players, but why not? It would make it 1) easier to build alliance HQ's, 2) possible for "non-allianced" parties to help or trade with each another, and 3) enable people to hire bounty-hunters and assassins to do their dirt= y work, without either party having to cross vast expanses of Kharne just to get paid (it would also enable alliances to strike against their enemies through third parties - does "plausible deniability" ring a bell?). In fact= , I think that this rule change is of much greater importance than implementi= ng horses. It will give more interaction between players, thus furthering the role-playing and letter-writing element, as well as the intrigues. If there is any reason not to introduce the $-rule, please tell me what it is! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 01:02:32 GMT From: DAVE_REES <DAVE_REES@metnet.demon.co.uk (Jon Witty)> DR> I've seen with great interest the debate on mage power, and as I play a group with a totally outrageous number of mages I thought I'd put some points to you all. 1) I agree totally that multiple death spells are a problem, but they are not the only one. Black Void cost 8 power points to cast and works on average 1 in 6 times. Engulfing Globe cost 14 pp and works about 1 in 4 tim= es Total Death costs 20+3 per target and doesn't work everytime. No need to say I don't use Total Death. Altering (or removing totally) the amount of times the spell works will force the player to change spells perhaps to Disintegrate or Ball of Fire / Acid Blast. The problem of too much mage power still remains. 2) The main reason that groups like this are built is that they can destroy a group if the player wishes. The fact that a group consisting of fighters priest and mages are going to get the crap beaten out of them is irrelevant= . Mages are the most powerful character end of story. There is no way around this. Even if you removed the class from the game, priests would then be the most powerful class - remember the early game 3 days when a hard group had 8+ priests. One class will always out balance another. 3) The problem rises from the game system itself and KJC. In G14 the spell list is exactly the same as G3. No need for spell research get a mage and away you go. Mage skill is available in every city. Powders are TOO cheap, if the powders were priced as in the early games, it would be almost an impossibility to build a group with mostly mages. But the balance changes back to priests. Ok no death spells but loads of Call or Wrath (try casting it on a group with no fighters and thieves and see how many you hit= ) 4) Moving spell casting into melee is start, but is it? On a plain why shouldn't a spellcaster unload his spell before the opposition arrive, in a jungle or on a mountain they shouldn't get the chance (why isn't terrain more interactive with the game world?) Would a mage be likely to let loose a Ball of Fire in the middle of a group of upto 30 nutters flailing axes around? What about his own side? Wouldn't they get hit too? 5) Evil an ethic? Are we forgetting one fundimental point : =09Quest is an open ended roleplaying system. - Quest rulebook =09 =09Not my words, Note the word ROLEPLAYING, this is FANTASY, now don't get me wrong, I do belive that new groups should be protected from the ravages of the world for a little while at least. Why shouldn't a player do what he wants with his group? What's to say your right? Why don't we just ban all the evil orders and we can all live happily ever after? 'COS i= t won't work you know it and I know it. There will always be a more powerful party, until everyone has a 99 everything. Ok so I've probably pissed alot of people off by now and they're probably not reading this, but here are a few suggestions that may or may not help. 1) Priests : There is no way a priest of Ythcal would cast Bless, make the god stop priests casting opposite alignment spells. 2) Make any skill etc harder to get I.E. remove it from the majority of settlements. 3) Start to close down games and start them afresh, with a more balanced system. 4) Give fighters multiple hits in combat and give them multiple missile attacks. 5) Increase the power points of Black Void to 16 and Engulfing Globe to 28 6) Mages should not wear armour above chain. (Don't want to tip the balance too far) 7) There should be a chance that a thief is discovered robbing at any time even on the 1st 'W' order and a multitude of penalties could happen E.G. Groups could be fined, thrown out and not allowed in for the rest of the turn, or the thief could be jailed for a couple of turns, but the penalties should rise the more often a thief is caught. 8) Start programming other planes of existance NOW. Wouldn't you be interes= ted to find a portal to the plane of Air or a portal to the plane of Ultimate Evil? 9) It's too difficult to program - Standard programmer brush off. I know, I program too (680x0 Assembler) don't put up with it. (Or maybe not if you ha= ve to program in Pascal.) 10) Lower the Maximum gain from a TQ to about 10000gp (15 chars) and make quests more sensible than the monster type*sector distance than it is now. (see below for TQ break down) 11) Only allow new groups to be protected until they desire to forfeit that protection. When they decide to end it (or at a set turn age 30 max?) it is gone for good. Don't allow 'S' orders or 'W' order on any Alliance HQ. (The abuse of this is bound to be rife anyway. It is ill conceived and a ki= ck in the teeth for all players who have struggled to build a group with no help whatsoever) 12) Implement more interesting quests including interplaner quests. 13) Implement routines where monsters will attack players with the ferocity they deserve I.E. Get dragons casting Ball of Fire / Acid Blast / Lightning Blast not Magic Dart. 14) Ignore people who want harder monsters but WHINGE 'cos some monsters ca= n kill you. Tough! Why shouldn't they get a fair crack of the whip too? Shouldn't there be some risk to picking up 2000+gp bags of gold? 15) You shouldn't see bags of gold lying around on chairs, columns, kettles or whatever! Put it where its safest in a chest, secret compartment etc and dispose of all the crap boring turns in a dungeon. 16) Journeys should not be allowed to cross a whole continent in 1 order. Journeys should be executed at the end of a turn. 17) Magic items should be a joy to find (Can you buy Magic Items over the counter in any FRPG? - Playing AD+D it's a joy to find a scroll with a spel= l I don't have on it) not X gp's and Y TQ's to get it. 18) Allow players to send player to player messages via KJC and have something like :- =09=09=09EVENTS SINCE LAST TURN =09A messenger appeared and handed a message to us. It read:- Greetings fellow alliance member, we will be arriving tonight and will aid you in ridding the savage scum that infest our land. =09Garthranas' Avengers=09Member of the Garthrana Liberation Front =09 =09During the night we were disturbed by someone rustling through our backpacks. We checked our belongings and found a scroll containing this message scrawled in blood.... =09Leave town or die Baldor loving scum =09Black Knight Alliance 19) Reprogram the Wish - sorry Minor Healing - spell to make it more realistic. This has not redressed the balance but tipped it the totally opposite way. Curing ALL Disease, Poison, Damage and Energy Loss for 50gp / party is absurd and not even anywhere near the balance of any spell availab= le to anyone. 20) Make the minimum flee factor at least 10%. =09Well there you have it, I hope that at least some of these points will raise further debate and hopefully some may even be implemented but I doubt that this will be the case. DR>=09TEMPLE QUESTS - THE ANSWERS =09Questing dead easy : monster type * distance. It's that easy. =0920gp / sector Rats, kobolds, goblins, gnoll, stinger plant =0940gp / sector gnomes, orcs =0960gp / sector giant beetle =0980gp / sector bear, kreorse, giant frog =09100gp / sector giant ant, giant crocodile, werewolf =09120gp / sector unicorn, wyvern, white ape =09160gp / sector elemental / sleech / cave bear =09180gp / sector dragon =09The harder the monster the more gold it's worth. What matters is terrain type, the best areas for questing in are jungle, swamp and mountain= s as they give the big nasty monsters. I've just had a 720gp Air Elemental, a 960gp 3 Unicorn and a 900gp Earth elemental quest. Luck of Novala and a hig= h charisma make no difference, as does the number of monsters in the group. =09From over 200 temple quests (not all mine!) it appears that you get to quest for the nearest monster group and that's your lot. DR To CC> If you want to get everyone to send the sector costs for other monsters I've not encountered, any chance of an inclusion in the FAQ? To All AMIGA owners> I have nearly completed a map editor for the Amiga and if anyone wants a demo of it drop me your address and I'll email you when it's ready. JPG rudely inserting a comment> ME ME! I want an Amiga version! =09Here's a quick overview : =09256*256 32 / 4 colour overview map =0915*15 local map =0940 different map icons, 8 of which maybe added together to form roads =09In program icon editor to edit any or all of the map icons =09Cut / copy / paste to move blocks of map =09Sector count - counts total sectors mapped (I have 37373 sectors of =09=09=09G14 held so far) =09Loading of text files for viewing (there are no text editing =09=09=09functions, you have to use your favourite text editor) =09Dumping of maps to printer - in sizes: =09=09=0915*15, 30*30, 60*60, 128*128, 256*256 to a suitable =09=09=09printer (this requires WB 2.04+) =09plus other functions =09 =09Anyway it's written in Assembler for speed and flexability and should run on any Ami (it will run on a 5,6,1200 for sure). ___________________________________________________________________________= __ Date: Wed, 08 Feb 1995 20:57:37 +0100 From: Martin Lind Jans <mjxmi@carlbro.dk> MLJ> Sorry guys and girls, but my mapper will be delayed due to a bad case of overtime at my job. I hope to be finished with it some time in march. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 08 Feb 1995 21:11:01 +0100 From: Martin Lind Jans <mjxmi@carlbro.dk> MLJ> 2 hints with a sledgehammer for the programmers : I dont know if any other are tired of moving 100 of characters around in your party, when you just added a new character and want him to stand in front without your mega-fighter cowardly creeping behind the mages? Why not changing the swap order to an insert order, where the character is inserted and all the succeding characters being moved one step back. Another thing, when moving your characters around all character-specific standing orders stay at the same character-number, so that for instance my mages starting training in two-handed swords. What a bummer. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- JPG> This is a long one again. I am going to send it in two parts so=20 that those who can only get 30K at once won't miss out (Steve + others). = =20 As I say, if I get it out more often, they should be shorter. >>-Josh-> "Dreamer... Nothing but a dreamer..." Up