ATLANTISv2 atl-design-digest #15

From: csd@microplex.com (Christian Daudt)

Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 06:40:52 +0000

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Date: 2 Mar 1995 11:03:49 -0800
From: "Mike Hughes" <Mike_Hughes@smtp.svl.trw.com>
Subject: Re: Faction Types

Reply to:   RE>>Faction Types

Mark Hesidence wrote:
(cut)
> Harm?  Thats hard to say.  What defense does a trade faction have
> against a war faction if it decides to double cross?  If I'm a
> trade faction how much trust should I put in a war faction to
> defend me from other war factions?  I rather depend on my own
> skill than someone elses (thus I'm not a trade faction) but that
> doesn't mean I don't want to produce things or use magic and
> I'm not going to carve out much on an empire as a generic faction.
(cut)
> Cities have quite a large tax base, Seldmere tax is over 20,000
> and towns seem to have over $5000.  This would make them perfect
> HQ's for a trade faction and at least one spot where he could feel
> safe from a double cross.

Nothing prevents a trade or magic faction from maintaining armed troops for
defense (or attack), just from taxing with them.  As far as feeling safe in a
city, the large tax base makes cities prime targets for war factions,
especially any where the city guards have been defeated.  In order to tax in a
city, all the city guards have to be killed first, so a trade or magic faction
would have to provide any and all guard units to protect itself.

This has all been discussed on this list before the game started.  I actually
lean toward your point of view, but I am willing to go along and see how it
goes.  Like you, I would like to experience all aspects of the game.  I pushed
to try to allow war and trade factions to keep trained mage units when the
change faction types, just not do anything magical with them while a trade/war
faction.  As you can tell, I was unsuccessful.  Geoff seems to be leaning
toward a more diplomatic game, forcing factions to rely on one another through
the faction type system.

Comments?

Mike Hughes

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From: "LEWIS.J.HADDOW" <9235367@arran.sms.edinburgh.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 17:09:57 +0000
Subject: Re: Faction Types

I think that the faction types are fine as they are.  There is a
necessity for plenty of diplomacy , which I like.  Also, it would be
bad management to change a trade faction's taxable regions to 1, a
war faction's mage limit to 1, etc, because it is obvious that 1 mage
is worth far more than 1 taxable region.  I wonder, is the limit of
100 taxable regions purely arbitrary?  Is it likely than any one
faction could become that powerful?  If a war faction has no capacity
for trading, does that exclude it from producing swords, mining,
lumberjacking, hunting, herb gathering or building?
LH
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Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 19:54:01 -0500
From: jhigham@k12.oit.umass.edu (Joshua Higham (NMH96))
Subject: Re: Faction Types

>
>I think that the faction types are fine as they are.  There is a
>necessity for plenty of diplomacy , which I like.  Also, it would be
>bad management to change a trade faction's taxable regions to 1, a
>war faction's mage limit to 1, etc, because it is obvious that 1 mage
>is worth far more than 1 taxable region.  I wonder, is the limit of
>100 taxable regions purely arbitrary?  Is it likely than any one
>faction could become that powerful?  If a war faction has no capacity
>for trading, does that exclude it from producing swords, mining,
>lumberjacking, hunting, herb gathering or building?

I agree that faction types should be in place, to encourage cooperation.
However, I think that everyone should be able to do a little of everything.
Perhaps try this models

Produce Reg      Pillage Reg     Mage
       -------------------------------------
War      10               100           2
Magic    10               0*            7(10?)
Trade    100              0*            2
War/Trade 30              30            1
War/Magic 5               30            3(5?)
Magic/Trade 30            0*            3(5?)
Generic   10              10            2

*I think that all factions should be able to tax, and faction types put a
limit on Pillaging.
>LH
>
>

--
"Knowledge is the key to the Universe"
			- Someone; I can't remember who.
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Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 00:24:04 -0500
From: mosherj@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Joshua Mosher)
Subject: Re: Faction Types

At 12:09 PM 3/2/95, LEWIS.J.HADDOW wrote:

>faction could become that powerful?  If a war faction has no capacity
>for trading, does that exclude it from producing swords, mining,
>lumberjacking, hunting, herb gathering or building?
>LH

War faction _do_ have a capacity to trade: they can buy and sell goods.
They _cannot_ make them though. Anything that requires the produce or build
orders is out. I can't remember about hunting though.

Josh Mosher

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Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 00:18:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Daniel Percival White <dpwhite@THUNDER.LakeheadU.CA>
Subject: Re: Faction Types

[snip]
> [snip] If a war faction has no capacity
> for trading, does that exclude it from producing swords, mining,
> lumberjacking, hunting, herb gathering or building?

As it stands now, you cannot issue PRODUCE or BUILD orders without having
some combination of trade in your faction type...

Daniel.

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From: "LEWIS.J.HADDOW" <9235367@arran.sms.edinburgh.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 11:51:44 +0000
Subject: Re: Faction Types

Josh wrote:
> War faction _do_ have a capacity to trade: they can buy and sell goods.
> They _cannot_ make them though. Anything that requires the produce or build
> orders is out. I can't remember about hunting though.
>
Does this mean that war factions cannot build their own castles and
ships?  Surely such activities are a vital part of war?  What about
vikings, who want to go pillaging?
Lewis
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Date: 4 Mar 1995 15:27:04 -0800
From: "Mike Hughes" <Mike_Hughes@smtp.svl.trw.com>
Subject: Re: Faction Types

Reply to:   RE>>Faction Types

Lewis J. Haddow wrote:
> Does this mean that war factions cannot build their own castles and
> ships?  Surely such activities are a vital part of war?  What about
> vikings, who want to go pillaging?

Yes, this means that war factions can not build their own structures or ships.
 They can't build their own weapons or armor either, all vital parts of war.
The point of the faction system is to force players to ally with other faction
types.   You need to either ally with a pure trade faction or run a war/trade
faction in order to provide your troops with arms, armor, ships, and castles.

Vikings can pillage to their hearts content as long as they are skilled in
combat and belong to a war faction.

Mike

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Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 18:27:01 -0600 (CST)
From: <carioca@io.com>
Subject: Re: Atlantean Enquirer Mappr

On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, Peter Fleming wrote:

> Hi,
>   The Atlantean Enquirer Mapper (for Windows) is moving into it's final
> version, due next week. It now has Flags, and a Large Strategic Map.
>   Any suggestions for improvements, additions and other features, please
> email me Soon. As i hope to upload it to some site next week.
>   Oh, and any suggestions for where to upload it to...
> -banjo
>
>
You colud probably put it here on io.com SJG wouldn't mind
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From: 9235367@arran.sms.edinburgh.ac.uk
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 18:17:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Faction Types

It seems that being a pure war faction early in the game is a very bad
strategy, as you loose a great number of skill options without having
the might to make use of the extended taxation abilities.
Lewis.

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From: Geoff Dunbar <atlantis@rahul.net>
Subject: Atlantis 2.0: atl-design list
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 95 21:57:06 -0800

This is a weekly posting for the atl-design mailing list. This list
is meant for anyone interested in the rules and design of Atlantis
2.0. The moderator of the Atlantis 2.0 game is on this list, so your
ideas could actually become reality! To send a message to everyone
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atl-design@tango.rahul.net

To subscribe or un-subscribe to this list, mail to
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to do, because a lot of mail goes to this address.
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From: tulrich@unlinfo.unl.edu (Tim Ulrich)
Subject: Atlantis: Apend?
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:41:55 -0600 (CST)

After my last turn got sent in, I realized that I had forgotten one
line.  It was rather important, and I began to wonder why there is
nothing that would allow say:

#ATLANTIS 40 APPEND
Unit xxx
 Attack yyy
or some such, which would allow you to add a few lines to what's been
sent in, rather than needing to retype the entire turn over again.

I'm not sure how hard this would be, but would anyone else find it
useful?

Also, if this command was possible, would there be a way to allow
overwriting of only selected parts of the turn (ie. If you give new
orders for a unit, they will be carried out, but orders for unnamed
units will stay the same as the first turn sheet)?

Just some thoughts.
--
Any views I express are probably my own...
Nobody else is willing to let me speak for them!

Timothy Ulrich					tulrich@unlinfo.unl.edu
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From: tulrich@unlinfo.unl.edu (Tim Ulrich)
Subject: Atlantis: Apend?
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 21:41:55 -0600 (CST)

After my last turn got sent in, I realized that I had forgotten one
line.  It was rather important, and I began to wonder why there is
nothing that would allow say:

#ATLANTIS 40 APPEND
Unit xxx
 Attack yyy
or some such, which would allow you to add a few lines to what's been
sent in, rather than needing to retype the entire turn over again.

I'm not sure how hard this would be, but would anyone else find it
useful?

Just some thoughts.
--
Any views I express are probably my own...
Nobody else is willing to let me speak for them!

Timothy Ulrich					tulrich@unlinfo.unl.edu

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Subject: Atlantis: Apend?
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 1995 20:35:55 -0800
From: Anson Winsor <apwinsor@span.CS.UNLV.EDU>

Sender: matthew@clark.net

After my last turn got sent in, I realized that I had forgotten one
line.  It was rather important, and I began to wonder why there is
nothing that would allow say:

#ATLANTIS 40 APPEND
Unit xxx
 Attack yyy
or some such, which would allow you to add a few lines to what's been
sent in, rather than needing to retype the entire turn over again.

I'm not sure how hard this would be, but would anyone else find it
useful?

Just some thoughts.
--
Any views I express are probably my own...
Nobody else is willing to let me speak for them!

Timothy Ulrich                                  tulrich@unlinfo.unl.edu

One way to help yourself is to send the first message to yourself also
and then you can edit it for changes and send it back out again.
This would stop you from having to retype it.
At least I can copy and paste messages via windows on my computer.

Anson Winsor
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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:57:58 -0500
From: jhigham@k12.oit.umass.edu (Joshua Higham (NMH96))
Subject: Tax/Pillage

Geoff (or anyone else who has an arguement) would you have any problem with
changing the faction limits to ignore taxation(all units can tax) and
instead restrict pillaging (only war units can pillage).
{Besides the obvious objection of too much to do, not enough time :P}

It seems to me that this is much more logical.  Pillaging is associated with
war, while taxing occurs in any type of situation...

Thanks.
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Subject: Tax/Pillage
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 1995 21:44:03 -0800
From: Anson Winsor <apwinsor@span.CS.UNLV.EDU>

EMAIL TEXT
From: "Joshua Higham (NMH96" <jhigham@k12.oit.umass.edu>

It seems to me that this is much more logical.  Pillaging is associated with
war, while taxing occurs in any type of situation...

END TEXT
---
Perhaps in our day and age  it seems that taxing occurs in any type of
situation, but it really doesn't.
What would you say to the IRS if they couldn't send the police (war units)
after you to force you to pay taxes or go to jail?

Really, taxes are ONLY collected by FORCE!
If we aren't forced to pay taxes, then we simply won't.

Therefore, only war factions can be capable of collecting taxes.
All other efforts to collect will be ignored by wise thinking people.

Anson Winsor