BSE Digest v195 #150

From: kerry@io.com (Kerry Harrison)

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 00:00:00 +0000

BSE Digest                 Tuesday, 18 April 1995       Volume 195 : Number 150

In this issue:

+       Re: BSE: Flashman Sweeps To Victory
+       BSE:IND
+       Re: BSE:IND (BOUNCED MESSAGE)
+       Re: BSE: Flashman Sweeps To Victory
+       Re: BSE: IND Positions
+       Re: BSE: Flashman Sweeps To Victory
+       Re: BSE: STGMap
+       Re: BSE:IND/Anonymous
+       Re: BSE: QSN - FGZ Hostilities
+       Re: BSE: Flashman Sweeps To V...
+       BSE: Re: BSE Digest V195 #149
+       Re: BSE: ICN vs RIP

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or bse-digest mailing lists.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scragg@infi.net (Joe Eckhout)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 14:39:48 -0400
Subject: Re: BSE: Flashman Sweeps To Victory

>
>To the GMs:
>
>Before you give away another IND colony, please make sure they are
>committed to it.  Otherwise I will gladly quit the QSN temporily and tak
>over the Alliponians.  No really, I am committed to the race.  I don't
>just want some free assets.
>
>
>

Never fear. People who gets lots of toys in the game that don't earn them
also don't
appreciate them or really know how to use them to their full potential.

I've been there, I got lot's of stuff when I was in the GTT and ZCS. And I
always appreciated the thing I built myself much much more. This is why I am
starting back with next to nothing.
I'll probably scrape up a few ships here and there but all the things most
people take for granted I'll have to work for. <or beg really well>

Case in point. The FOE firebase on Hammerfest that  the IMPs nuked. It had
lots of missiles and missile launchers but from what I read here it looked
like they forgot something like sensors or battle computers. Take little
things like that for ganted and you make big mistakes.
The person who set the colony up is probably one who joined the FOE just for
"the stuff".

I don't mean to pick on the FOE but this is just an example. Actually I hope
the FOE clean the IMPs clock, the IMPs need to be taught a little humility
now and then.

Cap'n Scragg

------------------------------

From: "Richard A. Loutzenheiser" <76311.2317@compuserve.com>
Date: 18 Apr 95 16:55:03 EDT
Subject: BSE:IND

Brad.

I would like to agree with you in theory but in practice I know that that type
of role playing is not possible.  I have done a number of investigations in the
game (I spent several years in the IMP and was the ISP PD) and I know that
unless RTG has fundamentally changed things they can't tell me things like what
was in the debris or where was a ship built, even if I can arrange for a logical
reason to know this information.  They simply don't have the info to give me.
The concept of a % chance of learning a name or affiliation is a poor
representation of this process but unfortunately I believe the only remedy
available. (Thad, if you guys are keeping track of more of these types of things
so that we could investigate please let us know.)  Otherwise the pragmatic side
of me says that to hope that roleplaying methods will allow for inpersona
responsibility and response is naive.  I would love to agree with you as a
roleplayer, but as a long time player I am skeptical of realism of this view.

Richard A. Loutzenheiser, SAM

------------------------------

From: Kerry Harrison <kerry@io.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 16:53:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: BSE:IND (BOUNCED MESSAGE)

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 17:42:59 EDT
From: btb4@Lehigh.EDU (B T Braun)
Subject: Re: BSE:IND

Richard,

One big change should help things along:  RTG has already added a "hull type"
mod. to ships that keeps track of the "history" of the ship, at least in terms
of who built it (or who owned it when they implemented the system).  That's
something easy to turn into a role playing advantage.  My fundamental concern
is that "affiliation" and "player" are too often used interchangably in the
current debate.

Envision this:  You find that it was made at an EEM colony.  It was jacium
plated by the SSL.  Two clues.  You follow them up (perhaps by involving
players, perhaps soley in game).  You post a reward for scans of the ship
number.  You confront the accused "affilitaion of origin."  They perhaps
respond with silence, with a plausible excuse (it was lost in a battle against
XX affiliation), they waffle, whatever.  The point is, you never reach the
point where the GMs say "Steve Mathews did it" (or whoever).  As a player, you
might end up with strong suspicions based on the data you can gather, but
figuring this stuff out is up to you, not some extra line on a printout, nor a
U$ -> blurbs nearly automatic conversion (i.e., you go to the site, execute
the standard order, roll the dice).  And you NEVER are told the name of
someone playing an anonymous position.

Be seeing you,

Brad Braun
btb4@lehigh.edu
///////////////////*********************************************\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
                            Brad's Sig. File Here
 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

------------------------------

From: Kerry Harrison <kerry@io.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 16:54:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: BSE: Flashman Sweeps To Victory

On Tue, 18 Apr 1995, Richard William Chiang wrote:

> Steve, I don't mean to be too harsh, but do you really think this action
> is okay?  So Kerry would have been okay to take Issac Neutin with him
> into the KZK?

Yeah right, and like the rest of the WCE wouldn't have gone on a bughunt.

Kerry

------------------------------

From: Patrick McLaughlin <pmcl@cts.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 15:12:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: BSE: IND Positions

On Tue, 18 Apr 1995, B T Braun wrote:

> Actually, the MU cost of a Hiport isn't really that great, particularly when
> compared to the MU cost of even a moderate research venture.

Not in MU, in inconvenience.

------------------------------

From: Patrick McLaughlin <pmcl@cts.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 15:36:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: BSE: Flashman Sweeps To Victory

On Tue, 18 Apr 1995, Kerry Harrison wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Apr 1995, Richard William Chiang wrote:
>
> > Steve, I don't mean to be too harsh, but do you really think this action
> > is okay?  So Kerry would have been okay to take Issac Neutin with him
> > into the KZK?
>
> Yeah right, and like the rest of the WCE wouldn't have gone on a bughunt.
>

This would have been a bit like trying to pull the mask of the Lone
Ranger, kemosabe.... <grin>

------------------------------

From: ccharnle@m-net148.arbornet.org (Chip Charnley)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 95 19:02 WET DST
Subject: Re: BSE: STGMap

>chip,
>
>If the new STGMap does what you claim, then I might reconsider it (especially
>cause I don't feel like re-doing Sreel again)
>
>steve
>
>

Well, I downloaded the GIF version this morning. I'll try to get the time to
check it out later this evening.

Chip

------------------------------

From: ccharnle@m-net148.arbornet.org (Chip Charnley)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 95 19:02 WET DST
Subject: Re: BSE:IND/Anonymous

FWIW, I played from 1981 to 1986 with the IND rules as they are currently.
We had a ball. We dealt with the problems that came up. Sure it can be
frustrating but it also can be dealt with. Any limitation on being able to
run IND positions is artificial and limits the options of players. Even in
the days of the CPR, I was not a significant military player. However, I
want IND to stay. I have one star-captain that will never be anything else.
Although he has sympathies with a lot of affiliations, the only ones he
wants to be part of either won't have him and consider him a traitor or are
becoming friendly with an AFF that held him POW for 2.5 years. He finds it a
little difficult to cosy up to them now. Since this is also my original
character in BSE and dates to 1981, I would probably take all my other
positions IND and then work very closely with one affiliation rather than be
forced to so significantly alter the profile of Capt Oshtkosh B'Gosh.

Chip Charnley

>I believe that it is a mistake to allow for unlimited play of IND anonymous
>positions in the manner currently allowed.  Don't get me wrong, I hate GM
>interference, but the lack of some method of investigating who planned and
>executed an attack encourages those for whom chaos is a means to an end.
If IND
>continues in its present form, a handfull players could make the game far more
>frustrating for the general populace than we would enjoy.  If I ran IND
>positions, the wreckage would indicate that the lifeforms aboard were
>SAM/WSP/KZK, others would be human, etc.  Additionally, analysis of the
>composition of the wreckage might be able to tell you where it was made or by
>whom; eg the alloys are of a type used only by race X, or the specific
>characteristics of the design indicate that it was upgraded at an EEM facility.
>Ships may be of a class, but in actuality each is unique.  If the gamemasters
>find it too burdensome to incorporate methods whereby we can determine who is
>engaging in kamakaze missions then they should either eliminate anonymous
>positions or return to strict adherence for affilation membership.  This is my
>opinion and does not in anyway represent that official position of the
Samillian
>Hegomony.
>
>Richard A. Loutzenheiser, SAM
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: HarryFlash@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 20:44:30 -0400
Subject: Re: BSE: QSN - FGZ Hostilities

My Dear Richard,

You asked me a rude question on the public board, so rest assured that all
my rude questions to you now and in the future will be on the public board
(grin).
   Your denial of QSN moles in other groups is providing me much mirth
tonight.  Ha!

Regards,

Steve D.

------------------------------

From: HarryFlash@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 20:58:51 -0400
Subject: Re: BSE: Flashman Sweeps To V...

My Dear Richard,

I came in as an IND player and had all my old assets rolled into IND
Werth.  Werth was very little without my old assets.  Based on game
considerations, I've decided to join the WCE.  Neither RTG or the IMP have a
problem with this.

You have a problem with this because it hurts your game position, and you
will tell any lie or smear any character (either in character or OOC) to
enhance your game positions.  I don't worry too much about your attacks on my
character, since most folks know your the biggest liar in the game.

And I will continue to attack the dishonest tactics of you and the QSN,
whenever and as often as I please.

I hope you don't consider this too harsh.  And no, I don't want to talk
about this via E-Mail.

Regards,

Steve D.

My taking Werth WCE was based on several considerations, including the new
game system and the fact that the CP is a dangerous place thanks to the like
of Richard Chiang

------------------------------

From: Ron.Kleinman@Eng.Sun.COM (Ron Kleinman)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 11:26:30 -0700
Subject: BSE: Re: BSE Digest V195 #149

>>You take a ship, properly equipped, to the scene of the battle.
>>
>>You spend at least one turn probing, making scans, and collecting samples.
>>
>>You analyze those samples to the best of the ship's abilites.
>>
>>If need be, you take the samples to a properly equipped colony for further
>>analysis.
>>
>>You go to other places, based on what the samples tell you, and investigate
>>further.  (Example: You discover that the ship was built at Hypso.  You go to
>>Hypso.  You spend time investigating, buying rounds of drinks, etc. until you
>>find out that the IND Urine People was originally built as QSN Pink Whale...).

Leaving aside (for the moment) the racial and positional slurs inherent in
your unfortunate choice of ship names, how could this "original ship name"
be ascertained?  The way it works now, is you request an IND position, and
you get one .. IND Brawn let us say.  This is the initial and final name of
the IND ship.

>>
>>You continue until you discover to your satisfaction who was behind the
>>attack.  Note: at no time need you discover a "who" in the sense of a player.
>>This may rile some folks, but the person behind the position is NONE OF YOUR
>>GODDAMN BUSINESS, if that's the way the player wants it.

I agree with some of this, but:

1.  Assuming the position was started by a player with 7 ships and 2 colonies,
  which one is reported as the 'owner' of the ship?  Random?  What if only one
  of the positions would legitimately have goals connected with the destroyed
  IND postion?  How would the GM know which one?

2.   Should the affiliation be revealed without the position?  This is more
  easily determined from wreckage then the actual position.

"We've discovered a WIC bowling team tee shirt with a hole under one
	 armpit surrr .. looks like the Werthie's are behind this dastardly
	 hiport attack"

"We've discovered traces of insect parts drifting in orbit ..."

If so (and I had supported this originally) how could the AFF PD keep
  track of which of his/her members were doing dirty deeds and putting the
  entire affiliation at risk .. until it was too late?  By finding out just the
  affiliation and not the position, one can only blame the entire AFF.  How
  can the PD enforce disipline, realistically deny knowledge, etc.

For starters, I'd suggest informing the 'responsible PD' (hopefully NOT
 an oxymoron) whenever a member sets up such an IND position.

Secondly .. anyone who wants to start such an IND position should have to
state which was the 'controlling' position / affiliation.  This is the info
that would be put at risk later if the IND was traced down as described above.

Anyway .. without some changes of this kind, I'm afraid the periphery is
going to become a place filled with sudden random inexplicable violence.  Kind
of like NYC.

IMHO, the implications of this new rule change (anyone can set up an IND
position) need to be more thoroughly worked out.

Regards,

Ronk

------------------------------

From: v176@rex.uokhsc.edu (Todd D. Clapp)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 20:07:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: BSE: ICN vs RIP

General News Broadcast From ICN PD Landover

An ICN squardron attacked the RIP colony Special Complex (323) in the
Swarm system last week.  The colony's space fighters put up a determined
defense and managed to heavily damage an ICN DN.  Engineers indicated
that this vessel will be able to return to duty after visiting an
Imperial shipyard.  The colony took a pounding from the ICN forces
and may have ceased to exist.  Imperial scouts are currently reconning
the area to determine the need for further operations.

While in route to the assembly point over An/Wust, the ICN Endeavor
detected a survey cruiser fleeing from the area just prior to IMP
forces arriving.  It has been determined that this vessel had picked
up a load of Fizzie shells from the RIP colony in an attempt to
prevent their destruction.  This vessel has been declared a pirate
ship and is now posted by the ICN/ISP.  Anyone with information concerning
this vessel should report it immediately.

The vessel in question is the IND Far Seeker (4663) (survey cruiser)
This ship only had 2 Jump engines aboard so she could not have gone
very far.  She was last seen at spsq 2040. (FYI - Fizzie shells
are designed to destroy things that require fissionables in
their construction.)  The ICN PD will pay 5000 stellars for information
which leads to the direct apprehension of this vessel or the
recovery of the Fizzie shells.  The ICN PD will pay 10000 stellars
to anyone who destroys this vessel.  (Don Guido - Do the boys need
any practice?)

Adm Allen Landover, ICN PD

------------------------------

End of BSE Digest V195 #150
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