BSE Digest v195 #171 From: kerry@io.com (Kerry Harrison) Date: Sat, 06 May 1995 00:00:00 +0000 BSE Digest Friday, 5 May 1995 Volume 195 : Number 171 Welcome to the BSE Digest, the place to discuss all the myriad aspects of life Beyond the Stellar Empire with other denizens of the Greater Periphery. In this issue: + BSE: Re: Fleet turns + BSE: Mining research + Re: BSE: Promotion Qualifications + Re: BSE: Promotion Qualifications + Re: BSE: Promotion Qualifications + Re: BSE: Promotion Qualifications + Re: BSE: Fleet turns + BSE: Re: New Rules + BSE: A present for Loud Protestor Hairy TrashCan + Re: BSE: Fleet turns + BSE: The Ataman's right side is a privy!! + Re: BSE: Promotion Qualifications + BSE: Research Rules See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the bse-list or bse-digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jstanton@qualcomm.com (John Stanton) Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 10:45:24 -0700 Subject: BSE: Re: Fleet turns >Unfortunately, fleet turns did not make the cut for a variety of reasons. We >feel that specialization will eventually allow people to foeld single ships >capable of taking on multiple ships and reduce the need to move big numbers >of ships around. We want ships to become unique and important assets of each >group. Not throw away "expendable munitions", which fleet turns would tend to >promote. And, before everyone says that we did this for revenue reasons, we >feel that specialization and new research will ultimately eat away more >revenue from us than fleet turns would ever do, so that wasn't the main >reason. > >Thad Fair enough. I'll take the new research rules any day over fleet turns. I think that the research rules will make the game a lot more interesting. It is good to know the facts about there being no fleets so that we can properly plan for the future. Thanks, John ------------------------------ From: jstanton@qualcomm.com (John Stanton) Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 10:51:45 -0700 Subject: BSE: Mining research Thad, Research into new types of mining or better mines or uses for alloys... all that kind of stuff -- is it safe to assume that it would fall under the category of general research? If I want to wait on making my colony a research colony (say, until the end of the year) can I do so? Is there some time limit that we are under for making a decision what class we want our colony to be (researchvs standard vs production)? Thanks, John ------------------------------ From: "Scragg" <scragg@infi.net> Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 13:39:17 +0000 Subject: Re: BSE: Promotion Qualifications Furthermore, most AFFs are COMPANIES. As such, they are presumably interested in material gain as their primary goals. Ahhh, I agree. Strip the company members off all military rank and come up with two ranking systems. One for military orginizations and one for Merchants. Maybe even a third for explorers. Ggive each rank in each category different bonuses. Why should a guy who made the rank of Captain hauling and selling Pleasure Sheep who decides to start driving a warship get the same bennifits as a real military captain who gained his rank by surviving many different battles? Joe ------------------------------ From: "Hendrick,Bill;=9462771" <BHENDRICK@kean.ucs.mun.ca> Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 16:48:03 +0200 (IST) Subject: Re: BSE: Promotion Qualifications Hello I would just like to offer a suggestion. How about having 2 or 3 separate types of Starcaptain promotions. Perhaps miltary and merchant and maybe prospector. Each would have different conditions for promotion. Bill ------------------------------ From: Kerry Harrison <kerry@io.com> Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 14:29:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: BSE: Promotion Qualifications On Fri, 5 May 1995, Scragg wrote: > Furthermore, most AFFs are COMPANIES. As such, they are presumably interested > in material gain as their primary goals. Wrong. There are 7 companies AFFs (GTT, SMS, SSL, FET, USS, AFT, EEM) and 17 governments AFFs - counting the 5 IMP Services as one (IMP, WCE, RIP, DTR, SAM, WSP, QSN, FGZ, AIS, KZK, FOE, PFM, EKN, PGJ, ZCS, MYR, ROC). Kerry ------------------------------ From: btb4@Lehigh.EDU (B T Braun) Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 15:33:27 EDT Subject: Re: BSE: Promotion Qualifications My point is that they already are NOT military ranks. Don't get hung up on the semantics of the titles. Be seeing you, Brad Braun btb4@lehigh.edu ///////////////////*********************************************\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ But you don't seem to understand. I fully expect to reign in Heaven. After all, is it not better to be a live lion? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ From: Kerry Harrison <kerry@io.com> Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 14:48:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: BSE: Fleet turns On Fri, 5 May 1995, Scragg wrote: > Just my two cents. I hope they never bring them back. > The reason ABM came out with huge ships in the first place > was to get rid of fleet turns. Hrmph, compared to the size of most of the colonies most of the ships in the game are small not huge, in fact the only huge ships in the game or the Cargo Shell (1502 hulls) and the Cargo Carrier (910 hulls) classes then there's the large classes (Flagritz Baseships and QSN Cargomasters), then the 100-150 hull medium-sized ships. Kerry ------------------------------ From: Michael.Keane@maf.nasa.gov Date: 05 May 95 16:21:51 -0600 Subject: BSE: Re: New Rules Brad, You're right; at 2000 for class 2 and 38,000 for class three, that requires a hell of a lot of fibrillium for the higher classes. Guess I'll have to get back into the fibrillium mining business. Who'd have thunk it, FOE as miners and traders. Evolution in action <g>. Later. Mike K. (P.S. there are a couple of Mike's if you could use last initials it sure helps) ------------------------------ From: Derek Smith <Derek_Smith.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com> Date: 5 May 95 11:40:22 EDT Subject: BSE: A present for Loud Protestor Hairy TrashCan Congratulations, Loud Protestor, on your acceptance into the WCE. <Damn spell-checker... bought it real cheap from Hagbard Celine...> I hope the Imperials agree to it (the WCE thing, not the purchase of the spell-checker)... But in the mean time, my crew intercepted the following underground transmission from the Inner Empire, and I thought I'd pass it on to you in view of your upcoming change of situation. - ---REBROADCAST BEGINS--- "And now, live from New York, Los Angeles' largest suburb, it's the Late Show Top Ten List. And now a man who's gone through more hairpieces than the rest of the Inner Empire combined... David Letterman XCVII. LATE SHOW TOP TEN LIST - ---------------------- TOP TEN WAYS THE WCE SUCKS: 10) They use teeth. But they forget to Thorlium Coat them first. 9) They use surrogates. They take a large hare, knock out its teeth with a ball-peen hammer, thus creating item number 4325, the *Blow Rabbit*. 8) They use the people with the smallest mouths when servicing the Flagritz. 7) They reverse the direction of their digestive systems when servicing the Samillians. (Workers only, they aren't allowed anywhere near the Queens, Drones, and [Super]Warriors.) Hey, them workers have to have *some* fun! 6) They use robotic surrogates. They take a large Pink hare with a bass drum, knock out its teeth with a sledgehammer, thus creating item number 4326, the *Energizer Blow Bunny*. It keeps blowing and blowing and blowing... 5) It gives their minor children something nice to do for their parents. 4) It gives their toothless grandmothers something nice to do for their children. 3) Like my father's shop vac. 2) With their noses. 1) I don't know, but they spend 36,000 Research Points per week on Suckology research." - ---REBROADCAST ENDS--- Regards, Alistair Haldane, Starcaptain, SMS Aslan PS: Oh! I got this too... Q. What's the difference between the Hindenburg and Harry Flashman? A. One's a flaming Nazi Gasbag, and the other is a Zeppelin. ------------------------------ From: Patrick Tyrrell <tyrrell@netcom.com> Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 13:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: BSE: Fleet turns It looks like Fleet Turns are out. Personally I had hoped to run a small battle group eventually. Fleets could have been as interesting to run as say colonies are, with the advantage of being able to move about the universe. Fleet turns would also have provided more reasons for an increase in the number of smaller escort type ships. Oh well, we'll just have to muddle though. Stiff upper lip and all that. Will Ship turns cost the same as they do now? Patrick ------------------------------ From: ronk@triassic-142.Eng.Sun.COM (Ron Kleinman) Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 15:41:57 -0700 Subject: BSE: The Ataman's right side is a privy!! >>The Ataman is pleased to announce that Wotan Tembu has accepted the >>responsiabilites of "Chancellor Privy". Great, just great. Here's yet another privy that's gonna need cleaning. >> >>This means that you may discuss with him anything that you would discuss with >>the Ataman. >>Basically, his fuctions are to "act" as a Speaker For The Rada and as the >>Ataman's "Right Side". Just a thought .. if the right side of the Ataman is now a privy, the left side (from which he communicates) was apparently the reason the privy had to be built in the first place. Hopefully then, this announcement heralds a raising of the level of discourse between the FGZ and the affiliations they have recently been maligning. If so, my best wishes to Master Tembu in performing the odious job that lies before him. Yr Obedient Servant, Nicholas Van Rijn QSN Blue Whale Merchant Person ------------------------------ From: "Scragg" <scragg@infi.net> Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 17:15:09 +0000 Subject: Re: BSE: Promotion Qualifications >From: "Hendrick,Bill;=9462771" <BHENDRICK@kean.ucs.mun.ca> >Hello > I would just like to offer a suggestion. How about having 2 or 3 >separate types of Starcaptain promotions. Perhaps miltary and merchant >and maybe prospector. Each would have different conditions for promotion. sounds good to me. ------------------------------ From: ccharnle@m-net148.arbornet.org (Chip Charnley) Date: Fri, 5 May 95 22:11 WET DST Subject: BSE: Research Rules Thad, I have read and pondered the new research rules for several days. I have come to the conclusion that they are a great first draft but I find them with too many holes, inconsistancies, oddities, and reality breakdowns to be very happy with them as a final product that we have to live with. I sure hope you are open to discussion and modifications as I think, without some, many people are going to be quite unhappy including the RTG GM staff. 1) What kind of research points are used for feasibility studies? Are they always general points? If so, it makes things kind of rough on specialty colonies finding things to do in the first place. If not, I think that you are going to see a LOT of feasibility studies from people while they stuggle to find which projects fit in which category and result in point requirements that they can BUILD. I think that you will also see some REAL SCREWY (from a writing/justification viewpoint) as people try to fit the things they would like to research in to the categories that there colonies have a prayer of supporting. I think you need to address feasibility studies in more depth so that you only have to evaluate those studies which people both want to do and CAN do with the assets/specializations that they have. 2) I think that you are too hard on standard colonies in the generation of General Research points. Since general translate to specialized at the rate of 5:1, it means that a specialized research colony is better than a standard colony at a rate of 20:1 (specialized rsch colony with 40 factories can create 1000 specialized rsch points. a standard colony with the same 40 factories can only create 250 general rsch points which equates to 50 specialized rsch points). Now granted, if you are doing general research, the ratio is only 2:1 but I submit that some very rational discussions can be had that standard colonies and specialized research colonies might have about the same ability to do GENERAL research. Personally, I think that stadard colonies should be able to make GENERAL research points at the same or close to the same rate as specialized research colonies (except a colony specialized in GENERAL research). 3) While I rather enjoy your breakdown of types of research, I think that your STANDARDIZED production requirements stink. I realize that it may have been much easier to program but the following ideas are very upsetting to me (especially from a role-playing perspective): A) My best explorer just found Ju-Ju-Bees on planet Jarak in the groto system and brought samples back to my biological research colony on the planet Dogode in the Swank system 7 systems and 1 BHT away. I have 30 special complexes producing 750 zanto lizards a week and 30 special complexes producing 750 bulalong sap per week. I am now going to use zanto lizards and bulalong sap to produce 15000 biological goods research points to figure out how to make Ju-Ju-Bee candy from Ju-Ju-Bees. B) I have a Space Combat Weaponry research colony. I want to research the next generation of Disruptors. I am going to spend 15000 pulac crystals to create 15000 Space Combat Weaponry RSCH points to learn how to make a weapon that takes COLLIDIUM to manufacture. The bottom line is that I truly think that each research project should have it's own special material requirements that need to be expended to start, progress past certain mileposts, and complete a project and you should trash the production requirements outside of some basic materials that make GENERAL sense (produce prototypes, lab equipement, house disposal of toxic wastes, etc.). 4) You have left out some fairly key, distinct technologies in BSE to fall in the catchall general category. The prime one from a WCE perspective is BlackHole related tech. We have several projects hanging fire for these rules in this area. Do you really think it belongs in general? 5) Your non-transportability of RSCH points really bugs me. Many major rsch projects have been done by cooperative effort both in real life and BSE past (Stargates are a case in point). In addition, the idea that projects are done with only ONE kind of research point offends. Think NASA could have gotten a man to the moon with only spaceship engineering research? I had truly hoped that you would have come up with a system that required different types of research to successfully complete a project so that COOPERATION within BSE would be encouraged. 6) Your specialized production requirements are going to force some people to either give up the idea of researching thier interests, give up thier colonies, or trade colonies as thier current possessions flat out CAN'T do specialized research in the area they are interested in because the planet/system the colony is on/in doesn't supply the specialize component you now REQUIRE them to have. For any decent sized colony, there isn't enough merchant shipping in the game to keep it supplied with this level of specialized components. As an example, I had planned to take Izac Neutin over as a research colony. Below is a chart of what it would need for inputs (on a weekly basis) for each type of specialized research if it NEVER INCREASES IT'S PRODUCTION CAPACITY EVER AGAIN!!!: RSCH TYPE Input needed Biological goods 8125 Alien plantlife 8125 Alien Animals Biological Warfare 8125 Mets/nmets 16250 Fossil Fuels 16250 Alien Plantlife (at average production levels that means 650 special complexes!) Consumer Goods 16250 Mets/Nmets 16250 Fossil Fuels Electronics 16250 Mets/Nmets 16250 Fossil Fuels 1625 Fibrillium General 8125 METS/NMETS 3250 Fossil Fuels 3250 Processed Thorlium(Know anyone that can supply & ship THAT on a weekly basis! The RSCH colony can't make it!) Ground Combat Weaponry 32500 METS/NMETS 32500 Fossil Fuels 16250 PROC. THOR (Let alone this much!) Pharmaceuticals 16250 Intoxicants (650 special complexes) 16250 Fossil Fuels Propulsion 16250 METS/NMETS 16250 FISSIONABLES 8125 Pulac Crystals Space Combat Weaponry 32500 METS/NMETS 32500 Fossil Fuels 16250 Pulac Crystals Starship Engineering 32500 METS/NMETS 32500 Fissionables 16250 PROC. Thorlium Teleportation 8125 METS/NMETS 16250 STRION (I will bet NO ONE can do this 16250 Collidium type of research with any kind of a decent sized colony) What this chart says is that virtually all specialized colonies are going to be class 5 or smaller simply because only a VERY lucky few will have all the raw materials available that they can even BEGIN to hope that they can develop the infrastructure to supply the raw material requirements for a large research colony. The only choices I have for Izac Neutin are biological goods (AFTER I build another 1300 special complexes), biological warfare (AFTER I build another 650 special complexes and another 1000 mines for my FF deposit), consumer goods(after I build another 80 mines for FF), or Pharmaceuticals (*IF* I find a source of Intoxicants on the planet, build 650 special complexes, and 1000 mines for FF). The rest are not feasible in my lifetime due to lack of raw materials supply. I can't even build general research points more than once in a blue moon with a standard colony due to lack of access to PROC Thorlium. And Izac Neutin, from an RP point of view has been one of the premier research colonies of the Capellan Periphery. ION CANNONS, Colony Research Robots, much Snittian Research, and parts of the StarGate research effort came from IzN and that's only during the tenure of Jame Retief in the early 80's. 7) Although not stated, I certainly hope that STRION cannot be used to create 30 research points per factory. It makes not logical sense. 8) One last example, it would take a 100 factory Ground Combat Weaponry specialized research colony 34 weeks to research the self propelled gun listed in the rules. Not an unreasonable time for a game such as BSE. What I find to be a problem is that that colony would have to have 250 mines on a 20 yield METS deposit and 334 mines on a 15 yield Fossil Fuels deposit, and a 2500MU RTS link to a standard colony that had another 100 factories producing nothing but Processed Thorlium while having 1000 mines on a 10 yield Thorlium deposit. And this all assumes that it takes 100 factories not 400 to process 10000 MU's of Thorlium ore. Also none of these figures takes in to account the power to run the factories or ANY support of the manpower. If you don't have a colony to produce the PROCTHOR for you but you do have the deposits, you can reduce the number of mines significantly but you will have to spend 4(or possibly 16) WEEKS using your research colony to refine the processed thorlium for every week you produce research. Don't think you'll ever finish that self-propelled gun that way. And I don't think you can find the shipping to ship IN 2500 Processed thorlium per week! 9) As I hate to be so negative without offering some possible solution, may I suggest the following: Make Specialized research points part of a specialized colony. A specialized type of RSCH point counts as FIVE(5) items of the 15 item specialization list. This would give the colony something meaningful and productive to do between times when it had enough of the special items to produce research points. It would also allow it to have specialized facilities to produce the items used in the research such as more research labs(factories), move construction modules to build complexes to supply the special needs of research, process THOR ORE (if appropriate), etc. Bottom line here Thad is that a LARGE part of why I came back to BSE was that you said there would be VIABLE research rules re-instated. Unless I have THOROUGHLY mis-understood something here, I do not believe that the current rules you have are viable. They will not yield ANY meaningful research in the next two or more years real time except from those with enough STOCKPILED research points to do something immediately. Chip Charnley ------------------------------ End of BSE Digest V195 #171 *************************** To subscribe to bse-digest, send the command: subscribe bse-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@io.com". 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