ATLANTISv2 atl-players-digest #56

From: csd@microplex.com (Christian Daudt)

Date: Tue, 09 May 1995 00:00:00 +0000

This file was automatically generated by csd@microplex.com
If you notice anything unusual, please e-tell me.
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Contributions in Silver will be gladly accepted.
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 15:57:37 -0400
From: Timothy Ireland <tireland@mc1adm.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: atlantis: horse assassins?

Oh, I thought you guys were training your horses to kill...  I don't
think I could tell a killer-horse from a normal one...

On Mon, 8 May 1995, Jason Robinson wrote:

> On Fri, 5 May 1995, Rachel L Hutton wrote:
> > I disagree you can disagree, who ever looks closely at a stablehand??
> > or someone with a sick horse??
>
>  But I doubt the stablehand would assassinate the target
>  riding a horse. ;)
>
>     - Ewing
>
----------------------------------------------------------
From: "Adam Waters" <swater@glob.chautauqua.com>
Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 12:52:50 -0700
Subject: Re: \newbie help

Rob,

This is the sort of information I feel should be free.
It's game mechanics information that people need to
be able to play the game.

I don't have any problem with people charging for spy
reports, gossip, spell information, rumors, etc. But
information on how to set up a turn checker should
not be charged for.  Did the person who wrote the
turn checker charge you for it? No, he gave it away
to the general Atlantis community for free to better
the game for everyone. Same with mappers. Same with
Anthonys killer homepage. Not to mention the thousands
of hours Geoff has put in creating Atlantis.

But this IS Atlantis, where the rules are fast and loose.
You can charge for just about anything you can invent.
But don't be surprised if someone buys your info and puts
it up on the web or an ftp site for free. ;)

Good gaming,

Adam
	Beedofast 349

Adam Waters
swater@glob.chautauqua.com
(415) 329-9619

----------------------------------------------------------
From: "Adam Waters" <swater@glob.chautauqua.com>
Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 13:11:58 -0700
Subject: Puttin my money where my mouth is.

Marc, and any other curious/frustrated newbies,

All this information can be found by ftp at:
	ftp.rahul.net in the directory /pub/atlantis, in the files:
	rules.v2, and instruct.txt. You should also read mistakes.txt.

here's an example of how to write orders.  Title your mail:

orders xxx		(where xxx is your faction number)

send mail to atlantis@rahul.net

Then the body of your orders should look like the following:

#ATLANTIS xxx			(where xxx is your faction number)

UNIT yyy			(where yyy is your unit number)

study observation
	claim 1500
	form 1
		name unit "Marc's Mean Mothers"
		buy 20 HEL
		study combat
	end
	give new 1 1200 silver
	give zzz 14 SWO		(where zzz is a unit number
	avoid 1
	behind 1

UNIT zzz			(where zzz is your unit number)

name faction "Marcomania"
	faction war trade
	declare 999 ally
	move N

UNIT aaa			(where aaa is your unit number)

work

#END

Now run this through your order checker to see if it's ok. (Seriously, because
I didn't :)  And you're all set.

Hope this helps.

Beedofast 349

Adam Waters
swater@glob.chautauqua.com
(415) 329-9619

----------------------------------------------------------
From: "ROB PETERS" <RPeters@Defender.Defenders.org>
Date:          Mon, 8 May 1995 16:45:49 EST
Subject:       Re: \newbie help

Adam, I've already given it myself, last week, to someone to put on
their home page, so the matter is probably moot.  Plus, just
so you don't think I'm a total mercenary, I've sent it to
lots of people for free.

However, I'm still not sure I agree with your distinction between
valid & invalid things to charge for.  I understand your distinction
is between things that are "in the game" and things that are
"outside the game," like turn checkers.  You apparently draw some
sort of moral/ethical distinction, which I don't.  That's one thing
that bugs me about this game is that there seem to be bunches of
people with severely moralistic attitudes about things that aren't
very important, i.e. what should & shouldn't be in the Times or on
Atl-players, or what someone chooses to charge for.  Sure, things
might run a little more smoothly if something were always done this
or that way, but frankly, who cares?  Certainly the degree of
outrage expressed is out of proportion with the fact that this is
just a game, fer christsakes.

Anyway, it seems to me that the real issue is that people need
motivation to do things (the Soviet Union found that out!),
especially something that takes a lot of work, as does editing the
net mail to make a clear compendium of hints.  Writing a turn
checker or Geoff's running of Atlantis, while a lot of work, is fun.
Editing masses of emails isn't.

Before I wrote my notes, there wasn't anything available to help
people, and my major motivation was, frankly, altruistic (for
someone with no prior experience with email games, Geoff's
instructions, while extensive, are inadequate).  However, it's too
much work & I have too much to do to keep on with the compendium
unless it's worth my while in some way.   Why not leave it up to the
people who feel they might need my services to decide whether or not
it's worth rewarding my time?  Certainly my requested amount, $35 is
trivial compared with possible benefits in terms of errors avoided.
Plus, as I pointed out, if they don't feel it's worth it, they don't
pay.  Hardly fraud.

> Received: from SpoolDir by DEFENDER (Mercury 1.20); 8 May 95 15:51:54 -0600
> Return-path: <swater@glob.chautauqua.com>
> Received: from glob.chautauqua.com by Defenders.org (Mercury 1.20);
>     8 May 95 15:51:45 -0600
> Received: by glob.chautauqua.com (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO)
>      id MAA24088; Mon, 8 May 1995 12:53:02 -0700
> From: "Adam Waters" <swater@glob.chautauqua.com>
> Message-Id: <9505081252.ZM24086@glob.chautauqua.com>
> Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 12:52:50 -0700
> In-Reply-To: "ROB PETERS" <RPeters@Defender.Defenders.org>
>         "Re: \newbie help" (May  8, 10:13am)
> References: <332AFAC365A@Defenders.org>
> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 26oct94 MediaMail)
> To: "ROB PETERS" <RPeters@Defender.Defenders.org>
> Subject: Re: \newbie help
> Cc: atl-players@tango.rahul.net
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> X-PMFLAGS: 34078848
>
> Rob,
>
> This is the sort of information I feel should be free.
> It's game mechanics information that people need to
> be able to play the game.
>
> I don't have any problem with people charging for spy
> reports, gossip, spell information, rumors, etc. But
> information on how to set up a turn checker should
> not be charged for.  Did the person who wrote the
> turn checker charge you for it? No, he gave it away
> to the general Atlantis community for free to better
> the game for everyone. Same with mappers. Same with
> Anthonys killer homepage. Not to mention the thousands
> of hours Geoff has put in creating Atlantis.
>
> But this IS Atlantis, where the rules are fast and loose.
> You can charge for just about anything you can invent.
> But don't be surprised if someone buys your info and puts
> it up on the web or an ftp site for free. ;)
>
> Good gaming,
>
>
>     Adam
>     Beedofast 349
>
>
>
> --
>
> Adam Waters
> swater@glob.chautauqua.com
> (415) 329-9619
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------
From: "ROB PETERS" <RPeters@Defender.Defenders.org>
Date:          Mon, 8 May 1995 18:26:47 EST
Subject:       Re: \newbie help

Hey, this is an interesting discussion -- it's sidelining me a bit
from this report on endangered ecosystems I'm working on.  (nice for
little breaks during the day though).  You seem to be a good guy.

I'll give you an example of the kind of thing I just added to my
notes, and which is very difficult to figure out on your own.  I put
it in because it fouled me up last turn -- I formed a unit and wanted
to give it a horse so it could ride south.  I knew that a give order
comes before a move order in precedence, so I had the same unit that
formed the new unit (new 1 hereafter) buy a horse & give it to the
New 1.  I figured that horse would be given to New 1 before it
started south.  Makes sense to me.  However, it didn't go through
& my new unit trucked south without the horse.  My orders were:

Unit 5555
    form 1
    buy 1 HEL
    move s
    end
give new 1 300 SIL
buy 1 HOR
give new 1 1 HOR

Apparently, this wouldn't work because give orders take precedence
over buy orders, so unit 5555 tried to give the horse before it had
bought it, failed, and then bought itself a horse.  Really lame.

Apparently (although I haven't tried this yet), the correct way to do
this is:

Unit 5555
    form 1
    buy 1 HEL
    buy 1 hor
    move s
    end
Give new 1 300 sil

This isn't the type of thing you can possibly figure out from the
rules.  You need to have a clear example.  The way I'm trying to
organize my notes is according to things you want to do.  For
example, the heading would be "How to give a newly formed unit a
horse or other possession on the turn in which it is formed."  I
would then explain, give a good example, and also an example of what
doesn't work.  This is what's needed for new players -- a "how to"-
oriented guide.

By the way, I wrote a serious how to guide myself for students going
to grad school.  It's called "Getting What You Came For: the Smart
Student's Guide to Getting a Master's or a PhD."  It's doing well in
its 5th printing.

By the way, another problem with putting this stuff on home pages is
that many people, like me, don't have access to home pages -- I'm
strictly stuck in email.

> Received: from SpoolDir by DEFENDER (Mercury 1.20); 8 May 95 18:03:44 -0600
> Return-path: <swater@glob.chautauqua.com>
> Received: from glob.chautauqua.com by Defenders.org (Mercury 1.20);
>     8 May 95 18:03:34 -0600
> Received: by glob.chautauqua.com (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO)
>      id PAA24773; Mon, 8 May 1995 15:04:51 -0700
> From: "Adam Waters" <swater@glob.chautauqua.com>
> Message-Id: <9505081504.ZM24771@glob.chautauqua.com>
> Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 15:04:41 -0700
> In-Reply-To: "ROB PETERS" <RPeters@Defender.Defenders.org>
>         "Re: \newbie help" (May  8,  4:45pm)
> References: <3393B561576@Defenders.org>
> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 26oct94 MediaMail)
> To: "ROB PETERS" <RPeters@Defender.Defenders.org>
> Subject: Re: \newbie help
> Cc: atl-players@tango.rahul.net
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> X-PMFLAGS: 34078848
>
> Rob,
>
>     good points.
>
>     I agree the rules are a little sparse and insufficient
>     for running your faction well from the get go. Unfortunately
>     every pbm I've been in has been the same. Usually this info
>     is common lore to veterans, but I can see how in Atlantis
>     it's still an evolving process and thus a lot of work.
>
>     I also agree that people get too bent out of shape over
>     what yahoo mouthed which clap trap on the atl-players
>     list. I wasn't really outraged, sorry if I sounded so.
>     I just thought these newbies shouldn't pay, and I said it.
>     One guys distinction about what is okay to charge for and
>     what isn't is only that. One guys distinction. Go ahead
>     and disagree, please do. I think it's swell that people
>     disagree.
>
>     One of the great things about Atlantis, is that it's really
>     only a skeleton. It's the players that flesh it out. Every
>     one has their own sense of what is right and wrong just
>     as they have their own sense of what's a great faction name
>     and what stinks. I submit the mighty Halleloojagobble as a
>     perfect example. This is the main source of conflict, as
>     well as excitement, for Atlantis, just as it is for the
>     larger world. It's a great thing and I wouldn't want to
>     slight or diminish it in the least. (See how exciting this
>     debate is for example! ;)
>
>     So I think I agree with you that there shouldn't be a single
>     moral tyranny, and that puritan stuffed shirts who spout
>     off on the group list should go frag themselves. But at the
>     same time I intend to clobber that low down extortionist
>     creep from Atlantis City should ever he set foot near my lands.
>     Not because this is Saint George and the Dragon, but because I
>     think what he did was rotten and thrashing him would make me
>     feel good.
>
>     If I had the wrong impression about your enterprise I apologize.
>     But if you'd like to make that URL public knowledge, neither would
>     I complain.
>
> Good Gaming,
>
>     Adam
>     Beedofast 349
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Adam Waters
> swater@glob.chautauqua.com
> (415) 329-9619
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------
From: witek@cs.rpi.edu
Subject: 45,55 Troop 2174
Date:  8 May 1995 18:27:36

Will the owner of the following troop in 45,55 please email me:
King Zaor's Guardians (2174), on guard, 3 high elves; Dressed In
Green.

I own some of the other units in this sector.

Mahtan Manufacturing and Mercantile

----------------------------------------------------------
From: "Adam Waters" <swater@glob.chautauqua.com>
Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 15:04:41 -0700
Subject: Re: \newbie help

Rob,

good points.

I agree the rules are a little sparse and insufficient
	for running your faction well from the get go. Unfortunately
	every pbm I've been in has been the same. Usually this info
	is common lore to veterans, but I can see how in Atlantis
	it's still an evolving process and thus a lot of work.

I also agree that people get too bent out of shape over
	what yahoo mouthed which clap trap on the atl-players
	list. I wasn't really outraged, sorry if I sounded so.
	I just thought these newbies shouldn't pay, and I said it.
	One guys distinction about what is okay to charge for and
	what isn't is only that. One guys distinction. Go ahead
	and disagree, please do. I think it's swell that people
	disagree.

One of the great things about Atlantis, is that it's really
	only a skeleton. It's the players that flesh it out. Every
	one has their own sense of what is right and wrong just
	as they have their own sense of what's a great faction name
	and what stinks. I submit the mighty Halleloojagobble as a
	perfect example. This is the main source of conflict, as
	well as excitement, for Atlantis, just as it is for the
	larger world. It's a great thing and I wouldn't want to
	slight or diminish it in the least. (See how exciting this
	debate is for example! ;)

So I think I agree with you that there shouldn't be a single
	moral tyranny, and that puritan stuffed shirts who spout
	off on the group list should go frag themselves. But at the
	same time I intend to clobber that low down extortionist
	creep from Atlantis City should ever he set foot near my lands.
	Not because this is Saint George and the Dragon, but because I
	think what he did was rotten and thrashing him would make me
	feel good.

If I had the wrong impression about your enterprise I apologize.
	But if you'd like to make that URL public knowledge, neither would
	I complain.

Good Gaming,

Adam
	Beedofast 349

Adam Waters
swater@glob.chautauqua.com
(415) 329-9619

----------------------------------------------------------
From: "Adam Waters" <swater@glob.chautauqua.com>
Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 15:41:41 -0700
Subject: Re: \newbie help

Maybe a way we could solve the no web/no ftp problem of spreading information
would be to set up Majordomo mail, or procmail so you could mail in with the
heading: Atlantis:tips, and automatically be mailed back the document.

If you're interested I'll look into it. We could do it on my system.

Adam

Adam Waters
swater@glob.chautauqua.com
(415) 329-9619

----------------------------------------------------------
From: "ROB PETERS" <RPeters@Defender.Defenders.org>
Date:          Mon, 8 May 1995 19:15:51 EST
Subject:       Re: \newbie help

Most excellent idea!

> Received: from SpoolDir by DEFENDER (Mercury 1.20); 8 May 95 18:40:48 -0600
> Return-path: <swater@glob.chautauqua.com>
> Received: from glob.chautauqua.com by Defenders.org (Mercury 1.20);
>     8 May 95 18:40:35 -0600
> Received: by glob.chautauqua.com (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO)
>      id PAA25082; Mon, 8 May 1995 15:41:52 -0700
> From: "Adam Waters" <swater@glob.chautauqua.com>
> Message-Id: <9505081541.ZM25080@glob.chautauqua.com>
> Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 15:41:41 -0700
> In-Reply-To: "ROB PETERS" <RPeters@Defender.Defenders.org>
>         "Re: \newbie help" (May  8,  6:26pm)
> References: <33AE9B60EEA@Defenders.org>
> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 26oct94 MediaMail)
> To: "ROB PETERS" <RPeters@Defender.Defenders.org>
> Subject: Re: \newbie help
> Cc: atl-players@tango.rahul.net
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> X-PMFLAGS: 34078848
>
> Maybe a way we could solve the no web/no ftp problem of spreading information
> would be to set up Majordomo mail, or procmail so you could mail in with the
> heading: Atlantis:tips, and automatically be mailed back the document.
>
> If you're interested I'll look into it. We could do it on my system.
>
>
> Adam
>
> --
>
> Adam Waters
> swater@glob.chautauqua.com
> (415) 329-9619
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 20:02:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Marc Siegel <ae485@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: \newbie help

On Mon, 8 May 1995, Adam Waters wrote:
That would be great could some one tell me when i'm supposed to use the
End statement, i know u iuse the #end, for the last line, but what
about the other end

> Maybe a way we could solve the no web/no ftp problem of spreading information
> would be to set up Majordomo mail, or procmail so you could mail in with the
> heading: Atlantis:tips, and automatically be mailed back the document.
>
> If you're interested I'll look into it. We could do it on my system.
>
>
> Adam
>
> --
>
> Adam Waters
> swater@glob.chautauqua.com
> (415) 329-9619
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon,  8 May 95 20:46:19 PDT
From: justinc@annap.infi.net (Moonpile)
Subject: Unexplored lands

Greetings from the worshippers of the mighty sea-diety Moonpile:

We have recently arrived in Atlantis City and are seeking knowledge of
unexplored territories.  We hope to set up a shipping and territorial
interest in areas that have yet to be explored.  In return for accurate
information which will lead us to our promised land, we will gladly
furnish transportation for your goods or units in the future at cost and
make you one of the trusted allies of the Order of the Sextant and the
Order of the Obsidian and Silver Moons.

Signed,
Arktor Durellas, Avatar of Moonpile in the World of Atlantis.

----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 07:48:20 GMT
From: anthonyc@cet.co.jp (Anthony Chow)
Subject: GIVE ME HEL!

I am based in Kashmar City and I am looking for HEL.
If you have any unneeded High Elves (HEL) and would
like to trade them for Hill Dwarves, Viking, Orcs or
flat out cash then reply to this message.

I can provide free training in Mining, Weaponsmith
and Observation. I can even trade leaders with these
abilities. In fact I would love to get rid of a level
four Observer, he eats to much and never sees anything
anyways.

----------------------------------------------------------
From: "J.P. Harvey" <u3jph@csc.liv.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: A goof up.
Date: Tue,  9 May 1995 09:19:06 +0100 (BST)

> RE: the following message posted to Atlantis message.
>
>> > Please Review and reply with comments:
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Press Release for the MONZON REGISTER:
>> Good, send it locally ....
>
> This was CC'd in error by myself to the Atlantis mailing list. It is
> part of a personal conversation and does not represent the views or
> opinions of any of the parties concerned other than myself.
>
I bet you feel right lonely now ;-)

Jon.
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 07:55:41 GMT
From: anthonyc@cet.co.jp (Anthony Chow)
Subject: I'm Failing Mithral-ly

I have a level three Miner and a level three weaponsmith.
I am now able to make Mithral Swords and soon Mithral
Armor.

The problem being, where is all the Mithral? Has anyone
seen any Mithral lying around? My guess is that the
Mithral is hidden in shafts. Has anyone seen a shaft in
the Kashmar area? If you have can you call me?

anthony

----------------------------------------------------------
From: "D.J. McGaw" <u3djm@csc.liv.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Unexplored lands
Date: Tue,  9 May 1995 09:44:50 +0100 (BST)

Moonpile (justinc@annap.infi.net) wrote:
>
> Greetings from the worshippers of the mighty sea-diety Moonpile:
>
> We have recently arrived in Atlantis City and are seeking knowledge of
> unexplored territories.  We hope to set up a shipping and territorial
> interest in areas that have yet to be explored.  In return for accurate
> information which will lead us to our promised land, we will gladly
> furnish transportation for your goods or units in the future at cost and
> make you one of the trusted allies of the Order of the Sextant and the
> Order of the Obsidian and Silver Moons.
>
> Signed,
> Arktor Durellas, Avatar of Moonpile in the World of Atlantis.
>
>

If the lands are unexplored - how can we send you info on them ....?????

Regards

Dave "the Trouble-shooter" McGaw

u3djm@csc.liv.ac.uk

Ps If I can ACTUALLY help you at all, let me know!