ATLANTISv2 atl-design-digest #26

From: csd@microplex.com (Christian Daudt)

Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 00:00:00 +0000

I thought I was going to get thousands of responses asking me
to keep this digest (maybe I just wanted to massage my ego ;-))
But I received enough responses, so I'll keep the digest going.
----------------------------------------------------------
From: Bean <ATLANTIS@bluebean.demon.co.uk>
Date:          Tue, 23 May 1995 22:02:06 +0000
Subject:       Re: The Times

> About the Times, it has gotten pretty darned huge. I probably at the
> least should offer people the option of not getting it sent. Maybe
> I should do something to split it up. ....

One useful split would be to take off the non-English language sections and
make them a separate document - there's been quite a lot of Spanish
recently (at least I think it's Spanish).

Anyone who understands both languages could subscribe to both versions
- those of us that don't would save bandwidth and time.

----
Bean. Email atlantis@bluebean.demon.co.uk
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 May 95 15:42:57 EST
From: francis@nemesis.iic.uam.es
Subject: atl: experience.

I love the methods for increase skill levels (study and teach) but I miss a
third way to do it. The experience. I think experience is the most common way in
real world to learn anything. So I propose this new rule in the game:
    - One month working with some skill gives you three more days of training
in that skill.

In this way one year working gives you the same (yes, a bit more) knowledge
that one month studying.

There are a few exceptions to this rule:
    - Combat: the increase is by battle. One won battle gives you 4 days while a
              losses one only 1 day (yes, you can learn from the errors).
    - Stealth: Similar to combat. One successful assassination/thievery gives
              you 4/3 days while a unsuccessful one gives you 1/0.
    - Riding: I'm not sure here. If the only purpose of riding is to give a
              bonus in combat then experience work in the same form than Combat.
              If no, same as other skills.
    - Tax: gives no experience.
    - Magic skill: There is no grow in days of training, however casting a spell
             increases its power. For example, fireflash dazzle 2-50 enemies.
             With experience it can dazzle 3-51 and so on (or 2-51 or 3-50. I'm
             not sure). This is the most difficult skill to change because only
             Geoff knows the full spell list.

I think this is a good idea and very easy to code, I think so. What do you
think about it?

Geoff?

P.D.- I agree with the changes proposed by Geoff to the orders parser.

Hasta pronto...........................Francis   O O
                                                      L
                                                     ~-~
                                                     `"'

----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 11:48:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joshua Mosher (JE 1996)" <mosherj@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Subject: Re: atl: experience.

Using experience to gain skill was how the original Atlantis worked.
Geoff changed it at the beginning of the playtest, which caused a small
stir on the design list. Geoff explained himself by saying that
experience had not helped factions all that much and that it caused lots
of housekeeping problems. E.g. it was very hard to efficiently combine
units when one had 150 days of study and the other had 80. I was a little
sad to see the change, but on consideration (especially given the skill
limits for normal units), I think it's for the best.

Your system would be much to messy I'm afraid. It would leave lots of
units with useless days of study that would make it extremely hard to
combine units. Atlantis 1.1  at least gave units nice round 10 days of
study for experience.

Other comments?

Josh Mosher
----------------------------------------------------------
Subject: More skills and Items
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 19:58:59 -0700
From: Anson Winsor <apwinsor@span.CS.UNLV.EDU>

As I read this, I realized we need a new skill: TOOLMAKER
The toolmaker functions like armor and weaponsmith, but makes
only tools, some of which can be used for combat.

These are all great suggestions, I have more suggestions attached to
the end of this message.

>From: Jay Luo <yaj@cc.gatech.edu>
>
>I'd like to suggest adding some items to diversify what products can be made:
>
>Item: Axe.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
>A man with an Axe gets +1 to his Combat and Lumberjack skills.
>
>Item: Hammer.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
>A man with a Hammer gets +1 to his Combat and Carpenter skills.
>

Should also help in Toolmaker and shipbuilding and Building

>Item: Pick.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
>A man with a Pick gets +1 to his Quarrying and Mining skills.
>
>Item: Spear.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
>A man with a Spear gets +1 to his Combat and Hunting skills.
>

Then, a bow should add +1 for hunting also.

>Item: Sickle.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
>A man with a Sickle gets +1 to his Combat and Herb lore skills.
>
>Item: Leather armor.  Skill: Armorer.  Material: Fur.
>A man with Leather armor has a 1 in 6 chance of surviving a wound.
>An Armorer can make 2 fur into 2 leather armor for each level of skill
>he has (i.e., twice as easy to make).
>

As it stands, it is nearly always better to make a sword than chainmail.
Leather armor could then be used by the front line troops and not be
without any armor as it is currently too costly to equip them with
things made of iron.

>Item: Shield.  Skill: Armorer.  Material: Wood.
>A man with a Shield gets an additional 1 in 6 chance of surviving a wound;
>this is cumulative with any Armor the man has (e.g., a man with Chain Armor
>and Shield has a 1 in 2 chance of surviving).
>

It might be best to make a shield use 1 wood and 1 iron. Otherwise it is
too cheap to make for the effect it would have in the game.

>Structure: Stage.  Skill: Building.  Material: 5 Wood.  Capacity: 5 men.
>A Stage provides no defensive protection, but gives all men in it +1 to their
>Entertainment skill.
>
>Structure: Mineshaft.  Skill: Building.  Material: 10 Wood.  Capacity: 10 men.
>A Mineshaft provides no defensive protection, but gives all men in it +1 to
>their Mining and Quarrying skills.
>

Mineshaft should give a +1 in defensive protection.

>Structure: Workshop.  Skill: Building.  Material: 10 Stone.  Capacity: 10 men.
>A Workshop provides no defensive protection, but gives all men in it +1 to
>their Armorer and Weaponsmith skills.
>
>
>
>Comments:
>Most of the items and structures in existence right now are chiefly for
>affecting combat in some way (i.e., weapons, armors and fortifications).
>Some of these items are still weapons, but double as tools which help
>Trade factions produce; likewise, it gives Trade factions a reason to
>build things for themselves rather than for War factions.

This is true, all seems geared for combat and support for combat.
We need more that will be just for Trade. Here is a list of further
items I think would benefit the game.

Need Toolmaker to gain skill levels to produce some of these items.

Item: Net.  Skill: Toolmaking 1.  Material: Herbs.
Gives a +1 on fishing skill.

Item: saw.  Skill: Toolmaker 2.  Material: Iron.
Gives +1 for Lumberjack and Carpenter and Shipbuilding
Can be used in conjuction with Hammer and Axe.

Item: Shovel.  Skill: Toolmaking 1.  Material: Iron and Wood.
Gives a +1 for Herb Hunting, Quarring, and Mining
Can be used in conjunction with Pickaxe and Sickle.

Item: Handcart.  Skill: Carpenter 3.  Material: Wood.
Gives carrying capacity of extra 25, but requires one man to push
it at walking speeds.

Structure: Docks.  Skill: Building.  Material: 10 Wood.  Capacity: 1 ship.
No defensive bonus. Adds +1 to the shipbuilding skills of ship being
built in the Docks.

Structure: Corral.  Skill: Building.  Material: 5 Wood.  Capacity: 5 men.
No defensive bonus. Adds +1 to Horse Training.

Skill: Mining 2 allows miner to mine silver ore.
Silver ore should be very scarce, 5 ore to a mine, and mines scarce too.

Skill: Silversmith 1 allows turning 1 silver ore into 100 silver.

Skill: Silversmith 3 allows silversmith to make 1 Mithril out of 1 iron
and 1 silver ore.

Magic needs more Spells. Spells at every level perhaps and
More combinations at every level.
Different spells available when Mage learns a mutlitude of foundations
not just limited to 2 foundations. It would be great to know a new
spell because you know 3 foundations. And fantastic if you know all
7 foundations.

Mage should increase effectiveness in production of items as he gains
higher levels of a spells foundation requirements.
For instance: enchant wagon should produce 5 wagons if Mage is level 5.

This way, it would give incentive to continue studying more.
You know you could gain more spells. You know you will increase
effectiveness in producing items as your skills increase.

What do you think, Geoff?

Anson Winsor
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 22:04:05 -0400
From: xuequin@unix.asb.com (Mark Reid)
Subject: Atlantis 2.0 :orders submission

I want to say that I think all the proposed changes are good, even though
I feel guilty that some of them are needed in part because of me. I've
only been in the game for four turns and I've had to bother Geoff
twice for lost turn reports and such. Obviously, anyone running a game
this huge (and a newlywed as well) doesn't need that.
   But since the problems I've had have all had to do with my mail
accounts and software (once my fault and once my provider's), I
know that there's one other change that would keep nebbishes like
me out of the GM's hair. So if a number of people sometimes run into
problems like mine, this might be worth doing: allowing a command to
cc: the turn report to a second address. Natch, being a total ignoramous
at UNIX, I don't know if this is hard to do or easy. And maybe unneeded.
But I know that I could have rode out my problems (and actually diagnosed
them) easier and without annoying Geoff if such an option were
available.
   Thank you and mea culpa.

----------------------------------------------------------
From: yaj@cc.gatech.edu (Jay Luo)
Subject: New item suggestions
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 20:59:00 -0400 (EDT)

I'd like to suggest adding some items to diversify what products can be made:

Item: Axe.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
A man with an Axe gets +1 to his Combat and Lumberjack skills.

Item: Hammer.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
A man with a Hammer gets +1 to his Combat and Carpenter skills.

Item: Pick.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
A man with a Pick gets +1 to his Quarrying and Mining skills.

Item: Spear.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
A man with a Spear gets +1 to his Combat and Hunting skills.

Item: Sickle.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
A man with a Sickle gets +1 to his Combat and Herb lore skills.

Item: Leather armor.  Skill: Armorer.  Material: Fur.
A man with Leather armor has a 1 in 6 chance of surviving a wound.
An Armorer can make 2 fur into 2 leather armor for each level of skill
he has (i.e., twice as easy to make).

Item: Shield.  Skill: Armorer.  Material: Wood.
A man with a Shield gets an additional 1 in 6 chance of surviving a wound;
this is cumulative with any Armor the man has (e.g., a man with Chain Armor
and Shield has a 1 in 2 chance of surviving).

Structure: Stage.  Skill: Building.  Material: 5 Wood.  Capacity: 5 men.
A Stage provides no defensive protection, but gives all men in it +1 to their
Entertainment skill.

Structure: Mineshaft.  Skill: Building.  Material: 10 Wood.  Capacity: 10 men.
A Mineshaft provides no defensive protection, but gives all men in it +1 to
their Mining and Quarrying skills.

Structure: Workshop.  Skill: Building.  Material: 10 Stone.  Capacity: 10 men.
A Workshop provides no defensive protection, but gives all men in it +1 to
their Armorer and Weaponsmith skills.

Comments:
Most of the items and structures in existence right now are chiefly for
affecting combat in some way (i.e., weapons, armors and fortifications).
Some of these items are still weapons, but double as tools which help
Trade factions produce; likewise, it gives Trade factions a reason to
build things for themselves rather than for War factions.

----------------------------------------------------------
From: Bean <ATLANTIS@bluebean.demon.co.uk>
Date:          Sat, 27 May 1995 14:59:37 +0000
Subject:       Re: New item suggestions

I like the idea that most of these items are valuable for peaceful
occupations as well as combat.
> I'd like to suggest adding some items to diversify what products can be made:
....

----------------------------------------------------------
Subject: New item suggestions
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 14:34:46 -0700
From: Anson Winsor <apwinsor@span.CS.UNLV.EDU>

Please lets hear more from you on the list what you think about
these new items that can be used for other than combat purposes.

From: Bean <ATLANTIS@bluebean.demon.co.uk>
>I like the idea that most of these items are valuable for peaceful
>occupations as well as combat.
>> I'd like to suggest adding some items to diversify what products can be made:
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 16:35:42 -0800
From: jbaclask@adnetsol.com (Jeff Baclaski)
Subject: Re: New item suggestions

>I'd like to suggest adding some items to diversify what products can be made:
>
>Item: Axe.[stuff deleted]

Good ideas...I would like to see some more objects that are not
combat-oriented.  I think that with the number of players in the game we
can afford to make the economy a little more complex, so that more niches
are available.

Which objects would you phase in first?

-jb

Faction 548

EMS, Ltd

----------------------------------------------------------
From: Niclas Olofsson <m93nol@student.tdb.uu.se>
Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 16:14:42 +0200
Subject: Re: New item suggestions

Great skills and items. It makes Atlantis less a strategic WAR-game and
more a fantasy game-world. I'd love to see it implemented!
----------------------------------------------------------
From: Geoff Dunbar <atlantis@rahul.net>
Subject: Atlantis 2.0: atl-design list
Date: Sun, 28 May 95 23:55:05 -0700

This is a weekly posting for the atl-design mailing list. This list
is meant for anyone interested in the rules and design of Atlantis
2.0. The moderator of the Atlantis 2.0 game is on this list, so your
ideas could actually become reality! To send a message to everyone
on the list, send email to:

atl-design@tango.rahul.net

To subscribe or un-subscribe to this list, mail to
atlantis@rahul.net. Make sure you specify exactly what you want me
to do, because a lot of mail goes to this address.
----------------------------------------------------------
From: Lewis Haddow <9235367@arran.sms.ed.ac.uk>
Date:          Mon, 29 May 1995 10:59:00 +0000
Subject:       Re: More skills and Items

about these new suggestions:
I think that Jay Luo's suggestions were mostly good.  But let's not
get carried away.  Any new items should be simple (at the expense of a
bit of realism).  Concerning the silversmith idea - surely it would
be a huge advantage to make silver, perhaps the most powerful item in
the game.  This sort of thing should be regulated.  And the use of
shovels, corrals and nets is adding unneccessary complexity, I think.
In addition, items should best be made of only one raw material and
assist now more than two skills.  I agree that bows should be used in
hunting.
----------------------------------------------------------
From: "D.J. McGaw" <u3djm@csc.liv.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: More skills and Items
Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 08:58:06 +0100 (BST)

All good points.

Keep 'em coming lads.

One comment though, Anson, do you have a mage? If you don't then you should
note that at higher levels in a foundation, you have the ability to gain more
spells. It's that simple.

Having mages produce more enchanted wagons at higher levels is a good idea,
but implementing it would probably be an unecessary burden. The spells are greatas they stand.!!!

Regards

Dave

> As I read this, I realized we need a new skill: TOOLMAKER
> The toolmaker functions like armor and weaponsmith, but makes
> only tools, some of which can be used for combat.
>
> These are all great suggestions, I have more suggestions attached to
> the end of this message.
>
>>From: Jay Luo <yaj@cc.gatech.edu>
>>
>>I'd like to suggest adding some items to diversify what products can be
made:
>>
>>Item: Axe.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
>>A man with an Axe gets +1 to his Combat and Lumberjack skills.
>>
>>Item: Hammer.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
>>A man with a Hammer gets +1 to his Combat and Carpenter skills.
>>
>
> Should also help in Toolmaker and shipbuilding and Building
>
>>Item: Pick.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
>>A man with a Pick gets +1 to his Quarrying and Mining skills.
>>
>>Item: Spear.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
>>A man with a Spear gets +1 to his Combat and Hunting skills.
>>
>
> Then, a bow should add +1 for hunting also.
>
>>Item: Sickle.  Skill: Weaponsmith.  Material: Iron.
>>A man with a Sickle gets +1 to his Combat and Herb lore skills.
>>
>>Item: Leather armor.  Skill: Armorer.  Material: Fur.
>>A man with Leather armor has a 1 in 6 chance of surviving a wound.
>>An Armorer can make 2 fur into 2 leather armor for each level of skill
>>he has (i.e., twice as easy to make).
>>
>
> As it stands, it is nearly always better to make a sword than chainmail.
> Leather armor could then be used by the front line troops and not be
> without any armor as it is currently too costly to equip them with
> things made of iron.
>
>>Item: Shield.  Skill: Armorer.  Material: Wood.
>>A man with a Shield gets an additional 1 in 6 chance of surviving a wound;
>>this is cumulative with any Armor the man has (e.g., a man with Chain Armor
>>and Shield has a 1 in 2 chance of surviving).
>>
>
> It might be best to make a shield use 1 wood and 1 iron. Otherwise it is
> too cheap to make for the effect it would have in the game.
>
>>Structure: Stage.  Skill: Building.  Material: 5 Wood.  Capacity: 5 men.
>>A Stage provides no defensive protection, but gives all men in it +1 to
their
>>Entertainment skill.
>>
>>Structure: Mineshaft.  Skill: Building.  Material: 10 Wood.  Capacity: 10
men.
>>A Mineshaft provides no defensive protection, but gives all men in it +1 to
>>their Mining and Quarrying skills.
>>
>
> Mineshaft should give a +1 in defensive protection.
>
>>Structure: Workshop.  Skill: Building.  Material: 10 Stone.  Capacity: 10
men.
>>A Workshop provides no defensive protection, but gives all men in it +1 to
>>their Armorer and Weaponsmith skills.
>>
>>
>>
>>Comments:
>>Most of the items and structures in existence right now are chiefly for
>>affecting combat in some way (i.e., weapons, armors and fortifications).
>>Some of these items are still weapons, but double as tools which help
>>Trade factions produce; likewise, it gives Trade factions a reason to
>>build things for themselves rather than for War factions.
>
> This is true, all seems geared for combat and support for combat.
> We need more that will be just for Trade. Here is a list of further
> items I think would benefit the game.
>
> Need Toolmaker to gain skill levels to produce some of these items.
>
> Item: Net.  Skill: Toolmaking 1.  Material: Herbs.
> Gives a +1 on fishing skill.
>
> Item: saw.  Skill: Toolmaker 2.  Material: Iron.
> Gives +1 for Lumberjack and Carpenter and Shipbuilding
> Can be used in conjuction with Hammer and Axe.
>
> Item: Shovel.  Skill: Toolmaking 1.  Material: Iron and Wood.
> Gives a +1 for Herb Hunting, Quarring, and Mining
> Can be used in conjunction with Pickaxe and Sickle.
>
> Item: Handcart.  Skill: Carpenter 3.  Material: Wood.
> Gives carrying capacity of extra 25, but requires one man to push
> it at walking speeds.
>
> Structure: Docks.  Skill: Building.  Material: 10 Wood.  Capacity: 1 ship.
> No defensive bonus. Adds +1 to the shipbuilding skills of ship being
> built in the Docks.
>
> Structure: Corral.  Skill: Building.  Material: 5 Wood.  Capacity: 5 men.
> No defensive bonus. Adds +1 to Horse Training.
>
> Skill: Mining 2 allows miner to mine silver ore.
> Silver ore should be very scarce, 5 ore to a mine, and mines scarce too.
>
> Skill: Silversmith 1 allows turning 1 silver ore into 100 silver.
>
> Skill: Silversmith 3 allows silversmith to make 1 Mithril out of 1 iron
> and 1 silver ore.
>
> Magic needs more Spells. Spells at every level perhaps and
> More combinations at every level.
> Different spells available when Mage learns a mutlitude of foundations
> not just limited to 2 foundations. It would be great to know a new
> spell because you know 3 foundations. And fantastic if you know all
> 7 foundations.
>
> Mage should increase effectiveness in production of items as he gains
> higher levels of a spells foundation requirements.
> For instance: enchant wagon should produce 5 wagons if Mage is level 5.
>
> This way, it would give incentive to continue studying more.
> You know you could gain more spells. You know you will increase
> effectiveness in producing items as your skills increase.
>
> What do you think, Geoff?
>
> Anson Winsor
>
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 May 95 08:05:09 PDT
From: "GDUNBAR.US.ORACLE.COM" <GDUNBAR@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Re: Atlantis 2.0 :orders submission

--Boundary-10651412-0-0

Heh, I re-send at least 10 reports each week. So you're not the
only one!

Geoff

--Boundary-10651412-0-0
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Received: 26 May 1995 20:34:16                    Sent: 26 May 1995 20:34:08
From:"Mark Reid" <owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net>
To: atl-design@tango.rahul.net
Subject: Atlantis 2.0 :orders submission
Reply-to: owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net
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----------------------------------------------------------
From: janeik@oslonett.no (Jan Eikeland)
Subject: Birkebeiner
Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 17:39:14 -0100

Talking about winterseason:

Suggestion for new viking-skill: BIRKEBEINER.

Thats a gang of viking very skilled at skiing.
They could move very fast (far) in winterseasons (on a pair of ski).

They were wearing a stock to keep balance and were very light armed.

-je-

----------------------------
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