BSE Digest v195 #228

From: kerry@freeside.fc.net (Kerry Harrison)

Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 00:00:00 +0000

BSE Digest                 Tuesday, 20 June 1995       Volume 195 : Number 228

Welcome to the BSE Digest, the place to discuss all the myriad aspects of
life Beyond the Stellar Empire with other denizens of the Greater Periphery.

In this issue:

+       BSE: IMP shooting IND
+       BSE: Re: #1(2) BSE Digest V195 #226
+       Re: BSE:Colony Turns -Reply
+       No "Flame" Intended
+       This colony thing...idea
+       RUMOR
+       Re: BSE: No "Flame" Intended
+       Re: BSE: This colony thing...idea
+       BSE: IMP shooting IND
+       IMP Shoots IND
+       Re: Space battle at Hammerfest
+       Re: BSE: No "Flame" Intended
+       BSE: IMP shooting IND
+       BHT & Pulac Crystals

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the bse-list
or bse-digest mailing lists.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: LUDENDORF@delphi.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 21:25:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: BSE: IMP shooting IND

Ed,

Perhaps you can answer this question: What reason would an IND have to
come to an IMP military base, with no market, and no other colonies on the
planet to visit?  Colonies don't go "hunting" they're stationary, and since
it's been publicly mentioned, and word travels VERY fast in this game,
seems that any that come there WANT trouble... after all, if the colony can't
move to and attack IND's, then logic would indicate that given the above
conditions, an IND having no other reason to visit the planet, intends
to start trouble with the colony.  Sorry Ed, you don't change my mind.

Steve

p.s.
No, you haven't gotten me angry.  the above is typed "matter-of-factly".

------------------------------

From: LUDENDORF@delphi.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 21:26:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: BSE: Re: #1(2) BSE Digest V195 #226

> "At the conclusion of a battle, any ships incapable of firing and moving, or
> which have insufficent crew in Command and/or Cargo to operate their ship,
> are considered Derelict."
>
> So, what's the question?

Thad,

I read it already.
[1] The battle took place BEFORE the 6-15 changeover... old rules still
in effect.
[2] DER under old rules means NO,(read zero) crew, or no engines.
[3] lack of sufficient crew means DISABLED (read unable to move).

I'm not arguing that the ship is DER.  Y'all have made a decision,
and i'll live with it.  By now, y'all have already processed the turns
remedying that and withdrawing the ship.  The arguement is: should
you have implemented the new rules while the old were still effect?
Hypothetically let's say RTG's state of Colorado passes a law
requiring full coverage health ins. on every employee (not just
workers comp.) to take effect 1-1-96, and let's say that the State
inspectors come to RTG yesterday and issue a fine (to others,
this is all hypothetical) for failure to comply with the law, even
though it isn't in place yet.  Would that be right?  I should
point out that I didn't call y'all and complain, I simply faxed a turn
remedying the situation.  My point here is that you have a great
game here, and have the potential to return this game to the
position it once held, the queen of all space opera games.  However,
when you play free and easy with the system, you do detriment to the
game rather than benefit it.  If RTG is going to implement something
before it should be, give notice (like with the ship specialization), so
that we players will know what rules we must operate under.

Steve

------------------------------

From: dalepenn@HiWAAY.net (Dale Pennington)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 22:30:37 -0500
Subject: Re: BSE:Colony Turns -Reply

>>>  It would cost me more $ per month but not that much and would be
>>>  well worth the minimal additional cost
>
>    Here, exactly is my point.  THIS is the right way to sucker in a BSE
>player.  Give him a little more value, and he'll sink a little more in.
>
>PK
>
        I would like to add to that point. As a new player (very soon), I do
not want to spend too much while I am evaluating how much I like the game.
At the same time, I want to support my AFF. One way to do this is to take a
backup military ship and run the infrequent turns to keep it up to date for
when war occurs (as I understand it, this can be done for as little as
$1/month effective cost). Meanwhile, a small colony (so I could get my hand
in) would cost $6/mo even if it never approached it's order limit (and I
assume a small colony would have a hard time doing so). If I could either
run a colony with a lower cost (i.e. longer printout intervals) or it
smaller colonies cost less (simulated partially by the over 30 charge), I
would be more interested in running a colony early.

Dale Pennington
                                   soon to be ENS Jedediah Ross
                                   of the WCE Excelsior.

------------------------------

From: wayne.alexander@mercopus.com (Wayne Alexander)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 23:09:00 -0500
Subject: No "Flame" Intended

Chip,

>(Please don't anyone flame this. I am trying to dialog on this and find
>something that is implementable by RTG, maintains most everyone's
>concept of game balance, maintains RTG's cash flow so they stay in
>business, and allows everyone to pursue their interests in the game at
>an equal play level.)

A simple question: Why does the play level have to be equal?  Why
couldn't someone play harder if they wanted to?  Should everyone have
equal opportunity - yes!  Should everyone have equal access to those
opportunities - no!  It's first come, first served.

They don't call it the brass ring just because it's brass.  It should
never be available to anyone just for the taking.  It is available to
only those who will stretch farther than the next guy (or gal).

The only truly equal play level would be to limit every player to just
three positions.  Anybody out there think *that* is a good idea?!

Wayne

- ---
. QMPro 1.53 . There's nothing like the personal touch of a hired goon.

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------------------------------

From: wayne.alexander@mercopus.com (Wayne Alexander)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 23:09:00 -0500
Subject: This colony thing...idea

Well, well, here is one Mr. Bill who has the nads to punch Sluggo back.

A very sharp response that cuts thru the fantasy pablum.  Yes, wouldn't
we all like to magically obtain colonies, or run more colonies, etc.
The idea of outposts-to-colonies is excellent. I like it.  I wish it
would get implemented.  But, Mr. Bill is right. not even Rlo believes
it is going to happen *UNLESS* each player starts those colonies.  RTG
has adopted the position I thought we all wanted, what we all dreamed
for under The Company Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken - no interference!

Interference isn't water.  You'd can't regulate it, hot or cold, fast
or slow.  It is a binary concept.  It is either on or off.  There is no
such thing as being a little pregnant, and there is no such thing as a
little interference.

The silver platter has been sent to the kitchen, melted down and made
into picks and shovels we will have to use *ourselves* to clear the
"land" we wish to claim.  Pray all you want pilgrims, but the line to
the *gods* has been severed.

I like it.  It's a welcome change.  You go with what you got.

For those who might say that that is all well and good, coming from a
guy who has it all.  So, what's your point?

Anybody out there want to tell me that it was easier in 183 with two
ships and 2,400 stellars?  Anybody out there want to tell me that there
were more opportunities then rather than now?  You want it - you go get
it!  That's the fun of it, don't you understand.  The fighting and
scratching, the wheeling and dealing, the time and trouble, and you
build yourself up to where you want to be.  You might even get to be
king of the mountain, maybe.  But, BSE is a space opera without victory
conditions because no one stays king of the mountain forever, and we
all know it.  But, getting to the top and being king of the mountain
is well worth the trip, no matter how long it lasts.  It's good to be
king.

But, that all takes time and some of the newbies don't understand that.
They want instant gratification, they want it now, they wanna instantly
compete.  Sorry, BSE isn't like that.  Under the cast out *gods* it was
possible, and we all saw it, and many left because of it.  Now it is a
true space opera, but we have to write our own scripts.

The newbies need to know that to get ahead you use your head and make
yourself useful, maybe even invaluable.  You do what you're told and the
rewards come rushin' in.  The old men of the Periphery need to know
that we owe a duty to make it easier on those who have come after us.
We do everything we can to make the newbies feel welcome, to help them
get their space legs, to give them a sense of what BSE really is.  In
3-5 years they'll be taking their turn as king of the mountain instead
of the 5-7 that it took most of us old men of the Periphery.  It's not
the destination, it's the journey.

Mr. Bill's head is not full of clay and he sees things as they are, and
says so.  Mr. Bill, you are welcome anytime to join a Krieger for a
sausage and a beer.

Wayne or Stu
Take your pick

- ---
. QMPro 1.53 . There's nothing like the personal touch of a hired goon.

------------------------------

From: RIPLord@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 01:39:20 -0400
Subject: RUMOR

The following Rumor is being circulated among all the Starports:

RIP SHAKUP IN PROGRESS - There is a very strong rumor of a shakup in the RIP
organization.  Supposedly there is a big meeting being held with Lord
Greisson
himself in attendance!  Stand by for more information as it becomes
available.

------------------------------

From: ac217@detroit.freenet.org (Chip Charnley)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 07:26:56 -0400
Subject: Re: BSE: No "Flame" Intended

>A simple question: Why does the play level have to be equal?  Why
>couldn't someone play harder if they wanted to?  Should everyone have
>equal opportunity - yes!  Should everyone have equal access to those
>opportunities - no!  It's first come, first served.
>
>They don't call it the brass ring just because it's brass.  It should
>never be available to anyone just for the taking.  It is available to
>only those who will stretch farther than the next guy (or gal).

If the 'stretch' is that one player has more US$ than the other, than I
agree to disagree with you. I *DON'T* like it when one's out of game
financial position has a MAJOR bearing on what you can do IN the game. I
realize that this will ALWAYS be a factor at some level. I just happen to
think that it is too BIG a factor in colony play at this time. If you don't
agree with that, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

>
>The only truly equal play level would be to limit every player to just
>three positions.  Anybody out there think *that* is a good idea?!
>

Actually, much as I would hate it, yes I do think that limiting every player
to some number of positions would be a good idea. Personally I think the
limit should be at the type of position level and might be more than 3 but I
could live with 4 colonies, 4 ships, and 6 GPs. It would definitely change
my style of play but I would rather have that then have to face the prospect
of running in to the fleet of 60 super-dreadnaught baseships all captained
by Ensign Unamed and run by 2 players with deep pockets.

Chip

------------------------------

From: ac217@detroit.freenet.org (Chip Charnley)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 07:35:50 -0400
Subject: Re: BSE: This colony thing...idea

Wayne,
     I agree with everything you say here. If anything I have said about the
colony cost
issue has led you to believe led you to believe I don't I apologise.

Chip

>
>Well, well, here is one Mr. Bill who has the nads to punch Sluggo back.
>
>A very sharp response that cuts thru the fantasy pablum.  Yes, wouldn't
>we all like to magically obtain colonies, or run more colonies, etc.
>The idea of outposts-to-colonies is excellent. I like it.  I wish it
>would get implemented.  But, Mr. Bill is right. not even Rlo believes
>it is going to happen *UNLESS* each player starts those colonies.  RTG
>has adopted the position I thought we all wanted, what we all dreamed
>for under The Company Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken - no interference!
>
>Interference isn't water.  You'd can't regulate it, hot or cold, fast
>or slow.  It is a binary concept.  It is either on or off.  There is no
>such thing as being a little pregnant, and there is no such thing as a
>little interference.
>
>The silver platter has been sent to the kitchen, melted down and made
>into picks and shovels we will have to use *ourselves* to clear the
>"land" we wish to claim.  Pray all you want pilgrims, but the line to
>the *gods* has been severed.
>
>I like it.  It's a welcome change.  You go with what you got.
>
>For those who might say that that is all well and good, coming from a
>guy who has it all.  So, what's your point?
>
>Anybody out there want to tell me that it was easier in 183 with two
>ships and 2,400 stellars?  Anybody out there want to tell me that there
>were more opportunities then rather than now?  You want it - you go get
>it!  That's the fun of it, don't you understand.  The fighting and
>scratching, the wheeling and dealing, the time and trouble, and you
>build yourself up to where you want to be.  You might even get to be
>king of the mountain, maybe.  But, BSE is a space opera without victory
>conditions because no one stays king of the mountain forever, and we
>all know it.  But, getting to the top and being king of the mountain
>is well worth the trip, no matter how long it lasts.  It's good to be
>king.
>
>But, that all takes time and some of the newbies don't understand that.
>They want instant gratification, they want it now, they wanna instantly
>compete.  Sorry, BSE isn't like that.  Under the cast out *gods* it was
>possible, and we all saw it, and many left because of it.  Now it is a
>true space opera, but we have to write our own scripts.
>
>The newbies need to know that to get ahead you use your head and make
>yourself useful, maybe even invaluable.  You do what you're told and the
>rewards come rushin' in.  The old men of the Periphery need to know
>that we owe a duty to make it easier on those who have come after us.
>We do everything we can to make the newbies feel welcome, to help them
>get their space legs, to give them a sense of what BSE really is.  In
>3-5 years they'll be taking their turn as king of the mountain instead
>of the 5-7 that it took most of us old men of the Periphery.  It's not
>the destination, it's the journey.
>
>Mr. Bill's head is not full of clay and he sees things as they are, and
>says so.  Mr. Bill, you are welcome anytime to join a Krieger for a
>sausage and a beer.
>
>Wayne or Stu
>Take your pick
>

------------------------------

From: philip.breault@com2bbs.com (Philip Breault)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 00:22:00 -0800
Subject: BSE: IMP shooting IND

Steve,

You might want to re-mention the little incident with IMP Samms and the
IND ship that attempted to pull a fast one there. Methinks Ed doesn't
know about that.

Philip Breault

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------------------------------

From: philip.breault@com2bbs.com (Philip Breault)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 00:47:00 -0800
Subject: IMP Shoots IND

Ed,

I don't consider "silly" to be an insult.

One thing I was always taught by my "crusty" leaders was to evaluate a
situation before I went in. In that month of monitoring, did you ever
ask anyone why the IND designation has a bad reputation? A month of
monitoring wouldn't have told you about the IND attacks on the various
colonies, nor informed you about the previous owner's treatment of IND
positions (the only players outside of the _rare_ lone wolf that used
IND were the RIP).

I have no problem with a newbie's viewpoints. But like I did with
real-life inexperienced ensigns, I'm going to make comments when they
make not-quite accurate statements.

Please re-read my message, if all you got out of it was that I called
you silly.

Philip Breault.

------------------------------

From: Michael.Keane@maf.nasa.gov
Date: 20 Jun 95 08:34:44 -0600
Subject: Re: Space battle at Hammerfest

On 15 June 1995 LUDENDORF@delphi.com (S. Mathews) wrote:

<snip>

>I think RTG is screwing up here, unintentionally,  or perhaps they've
>redefined this area of the FOE, as they have with the Shadowgate.  If the
>latter is the case, I would appreciate knowing what the new rules are.  How
>the FOE
>are required to operate becomes intrinsic to my planning.

Should have kept my mouth shut, now the Blood Priest will be after my hide <g>.

>> Braunschweig was derelicted.  So either Flinn is a coward or he is dead,
>> pretending the DN was not derelicted means RTG lied to me or screwed up.
>> Your choice, but my FOE characters consider him killed by the Celtians.
>> Later,     Mike K.)
>
>I keep a partial backup crew in most of my ships, as well as other
>redundant emergency backup systems.  So tell me, what do you think
>happened to the ship?  Since the main wasn't hit, the emergency crew
>survived.  You're welcome to believe whatever you wish to believe,
>but ya can't change reality.

Neither can you.  I know your ship was derelicted (as Thad confirmed in his
posts, you need a complete crew to avoid dereliction, like the rules I
downloaded from Kerry at io.com stated).  My *characters* beliefs are based on
the limited information that they have - since the ship was derelicted, the crew
in command killed, and Adm. Flinn replied they assumed (apparently correctly)
that you had a partial crew in cargo and came up with the 'coward' comments.  No
big deal, you just need to carry more crew in cargo (although with 18 other DN's
in orbit, maybe not <BG>).  Sorry about the confusion, but I thought you were
publishing IC disinformation when Flinn said his ship wasn't derelicted.

>Steve
>
>p.s.
>Have you gotten your copy of the ground battle yet?  I'm curious what
>happened? (not at the colony, that's a foregone conclusion), but in the
>starport.

No battle report yet (just got a couple of regular turns for week 23).  Don't be
too surprised, there isn't anything in the starport (or there shouldn't be when
you get there).

Mike K.

------------------------------

From: RIPLord@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 11:18:06 -0400
Subject: Re: BSE: No "Flame" Intended

Chip,
  One thing that RTG has done to eliminate the 60 dreadnought sized ships by
ENS Unnamed is the rank structure.  Remember the new rule about how rank
relates to ship size now.

Neil

------------------------------

From: Geoff Hanna <71552.3003@compuserve.com>
Date: 20 Jun 95 14:06:53 EDT
Subject: BSE: IMP shooting IND

Phillip:

"I would highly recommend that you play for a few weeks and observe
   goings-on in the List and Digest before making comments of the sort that
   you did. Then you wouldn't sound so silly."

It's exactly this type of nose-in-the-air comment that turns off new players.
Of which I am one. Is it our fault that you got here 12 years ago? Should it
matter? What about players who aren't even on the Internet? Are they also
less deserving because of their lack of computer knowledge or hardware budget?
Perhaps you have been developing your ego as much as your positions?

I thought Ed's comments were well thought out and contained good points. I happen
to know several BSE players and was able to find an AFF suitable to my goals and
style of play before I actually joined. Most new players will not have that
luxury. And how are they to even know that IND is a dangerous AFF right now?
Can't tell that by reading the rules...

But this is all a moot point. Anybody's opinions are every bit as valid as anybody
else's, and do not deserve ridicule unless patently offensive or personal which
Ed's were certainly not. The fact that he is new does not in and of itself make
his comments invalid. Nor does your 12 years of experience guarantee that you
are incapable of posting 'silly' comments (as your message proves).

I expect to get pounded on while climbing the learning curve. Beat on my ships. Kick
A$$ on my colonies. Show me your 12+ years of experience with your game play. But
not with your condescending attitude.

Geoff Hanna

p.s. I apologize to all for posting OOC and inflame. I almost never do this, but
     this kind of thing really irritates me. New players are the life of *every*
     PBM game. I don't have to have played since God was a corporal to know this.

------------------------------

From: Geoff Hanna <71552.3003@compuserve.com>
Date: 20 Jun 95 14:06:59 EDT
Subject: BHT & Pulac Crystals

Of to received is one of Translator Chip high tech and of stellars too many.
And has possessed in many settingness is Chip. Please thus to be patient whilst
tested same?

Yo dudes and dudettes! Like, I wanna feed my wanderin' jones and surf the BHT net.
But this explodin' Pulac thing is a heavy bummer. I'm like all down and all. If
anybody can rap with me about skippin' the explosive trip in the BHT, like, call
me. It'd be far out!

Youse guys gotta lemme know how dis Pulac ting works. So's I s'posed to skip in
troo da hole and just hang dere in space wit my engines whacked? So's da bums
dat don't like KZK can lean on me 'for I can bug out?

(Translator warning: Unintended pun 'bug'. Abort, Retry, Cancel?) {Cancel}

Mebbe some of youse guys keep a supply of Jump Engines in da same system as da
Black Holes? So's a ship can load up again 'fore it gets hit?

Of and to correctitude possessing either setting above? To remain of testing is
several many settingnesses.

And anxiousness appeareth retaining of subject BHT and to-blow-up? Import!
To-blow-up is of avoided, and to be in worse-itude than shootingness.

Your Bug,
 D'zk Khan'e'Zure
 KZK Eighth Eye of the Goddess

------------------------------

End of BSE Digest V195 #228
***************************

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