RE: AG stuff From: ryu70@aol.com (Ryu70) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 00:00:00 +0000 Subject: RE: AG stuff From: sean <sean@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> I wrote: > > I think what Dave is trying to say is that newer characters are > > benefiting just from starting later. For the longest time, high > > power level people were getting max of _6 EP_ per guild fight! > > So, our old characters lost a lot of EP, whereas now the newer > > characters will go up faster in power than we ever did. Sean wrote: >Don't forget that the high power characters can take advantage of more ep >per guild fight as well. The lower powers can move up faster, but so can >the higher power characters. What real differance is there if a low >power character can get 10ep per fight if you can too. Both can move up >faster. The lower power characters are moving up faster than ever, but >so are the high power ones. :) See Dave's post on more power ramblings.... As I've said before, newer characters should not be able to catch older characters (let me reword and add a little to that :) ). In example, newer characters now at say 2000 power should never be able to catch up to a character that's around 3500 power. I can see someone making up 500 power, perhaps 800 power in 2 years time, but unless the older character took some time and semi-retired or really experimented for a year or two, the newer character should not be able to catch up if the older character maintained steady EP learns. An exception to this would be from the advent of adventure kill points. Ripjack, Golden, Vanya, etc have been able to fly by characters like Winterslope, Thorron, Head Hunter, etc due to incredible amounts of AKP (well, and superior design and management ;)))). >Most mid level characters have only around 100-150 kill points ><Around!>. How many does sten have? Has he broke 1000 yet? Each kill Sten is around 1500 AKP. Golden and Ripjack are over 1000 AKP. > > on lower level adventures. Even guild fights give out a lot more > > gold than what we got when we first started. >More gold in guild fights??? You call 5 gold per fight alot more? In >seven fights I might gain 20-30 gold tops in the guild. I can get that >on a bad swamp adventure! :) It's better than 0 or 1 gold per fight like in the old days. :) >Like I said, gold in the guild, even if better than before, is still >pittiful. I wonder how long a character would need to stay in the guild >to afford a magic weapon? Eons I bet!:) Yes, I agree that gold in guild is still pitiful. Adventuring is where it's at. :) I definitely do not advocate staying in guild if you can help it. > > it should be. If you are talking about development in a character, > > I'd say there is no wall. There have been many changes over the Todd wrote: : There is a very apparent wall. For example, when you get to 24+ : wsp your chance of gaining wsps is so small that you'll hardly ever gain >If you have never encountered a 'wall' consider yourself lucky. Even >with Kellen, the weapon god?, you are hard pressed to get past 26 or 27 >weapon points. Wasn't it Winterslope that said he hadn't gained but 3 >points or so in the last few YEARS? Wouldn't that be considered a 'wall' >of sorts? I would say Winterslope's manager needs to do some training. ;) The wall there, as I have said before, is that Winterslope or any character that is having trouble learning weapon skill points should not have experimented with so many different weapons, tried dodging instead of parrying, used Heal spells instead of taking another swing, cast Power so you're slower, etc. If a character is trying to pick up weapon skill points, everything should be aimed to increase that weapon's use. If you cast Heal twice per encounter, that is 10 missing weapon actions. If you use trip/kick 5 times per encounter that is close to 25 missed weapon actions. If you dodge or dodge due to intelligent parry nearly 100% of the time, that is also a pool of missed weapon actions. Combine all these uses into one adventure and that is alot of missed weapon actions. Hugh has said that after 25 WSP, it is mainly just number of actions with that weapon that will give you the best chance to learn more WSP. Cut down to just one 'extra' skill other than weapon use and WSP learns should improve. Mike ***** Subject: Re: AG: Adventure Wall Writings From: lepag001@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Garrett R Le-Page) Garrett wrote: :Picked up another in Antar: :The shimmering ruby grants access to a special area of the Blood Cairn. :I assume that whoever picked the ruby from the tourny will end up with :Moridiel. With Rip taking the Manor, Paz taking the scroll, I heard from Lord Kleevy that he'll probably end up with the shimmering ruby. To tell the truth, though, he said he couldn't remember if he listed anything else after the Manor and scroll for his prize. :) He was expecting no one to take the Manor. :) Mike ***** Subject: Re: AG stuff From: lepag001@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Garrett R Le-Page) ryu70@aol.com (Ryu70) writes: >>EXCEPT for puds like Dorvan. :) I think Dorvan will equal Paz >>in a lot of ways in 1 1/2 to 2 years. Garrett writes: :We already know that Dorvan was brought about by an older player passing :on his scrolls to another one of his characters. I do not see how this :relates to the vast majority of starting players. Boy, you guys take things the wrong way on the net. :) Happens alot to everyone, myself included. :) I was cutting on Dave as my life in AG isn't complete without picking on him and his characters. :) >>Happens to me all the time. Evidently Hugh has set stat spheres at >>around a 30 stat maximum. Everyone else in the party gets a free >>raise of cunning, but I get stuck with KP. Like Dave mentioned, >>this benefits lower characters and also races like ogres, minos, etc. :Most of the good springs I see run out after one sip. Maybe seeing :multiple chances is a result of higher PL? I'd say more random on how many drinks from it....this turn I actually got to take a sip out of a good one, but I always go bravado 8 and go close to last or never get a sip. Lately, it seems 2 or 3 people get to drink then it disappears. Dave Saville wrote: >>> Another way that newer folks have an advantage is the evolving >>> game system. Part of the reason second generation characters >>> caught the first generation is that for the first couple years >>> when adv was not introduced, 30 odd ep was a great guild turn. >>> Nowadays, 30 ep is considered a poor showing. :In the guild? I can go to a called fight with my opponent severly wounded :and me unhurt and lose for 1 EP. My average guild EP are 26. Worse, is :being in Ciston, where going 7/7 can mean 15 EP. You must be going against less powerful characters if you're going 7/7 and only getting 15EP. Same with the 1EP instance. :So, improvements have been made. At least you did not sell a Fostil's :for 500gc at 200 power;) For the record: 600-800 PL characters will :bring in 60-80 gc at training sites and 150-250 gold at Skree/Dead Hills :at lvl 6. We can do this pretty much without dying. Raise the level to :7-8 and we start dropping. Hmmm...sounds like party composition or just bad path settings. Close to 800 power level should be closing in on level 9-10 difficulty. I can post some path settings and monsters/what to expect if there are some requests for it. :I was lucky in that I won my first Tourney and sold the Fostils for 500 :gold= 1000 gold. Spread that around three characters. Right now, I am :basically broke. Only Hawk's willingness to buy Twitter's MP has given :me any play money (which I tend to give away anyhow). Believe me, Dave and I were dead in the water broke for the longest time also (he used to run 5 characters, myself I ran 3 or 4). If 2 or 3 of our characters died a turn we had to squeeze every last gold crown to make ends meet. With the advent of Cyclops', new characters have a wealth of gold available. :) :Antar gives up to 30 gc per guild turn. Barstow and Ciston still give :5-8 gc a turn. The Quests have given low level characters a chance to :earn some money. The game has moved on. There is no reason why new :players should be poor when the game advertises itself as an adventure :game. The only characters around 700 PL with any money are those run by :older players. The rest of us are scraping the barrel. I would suggest sending a note to Hugh on this. If you feel you deserve more gold per encounter/per adventure he's more than willing to listen. (Lord knows all of the old players have bugged him on gold and treasure items for what we fight :) ) >>EP gains increase in guild and adventuring as you advance. Gold and >>items have increased a huge amount over the years for newer characters. :Well, I have not seen this Boon. 30-35 EP average on a lvl 6 adventure. :Death very likely any higher. Items mostly the 5-20 gc variety. My last :three adventures have yielded no items. These were Marikhold, Isurus and :Swamp. The 3 sites you list sums it up. The Swamp has been and always will be for higher power characters. Marikhold and Isurus are 'easier' and don't have as much gold and treasure as Skree and Dead Hills. I would like to help beginning/mid power characters out as much as I can. In the past I have taken below 1000 power backliners that could contribute to the party and taken them on our level 17 to 20 adventures to help them out in gold and in items. If any of you have a spellcaster and/or bow user out there around 500+ power drop me an email with your stats/main skills and I'll see what I can do. Currently, I'm setting up both even and odd turn SOTBR adventures. Mike ***** Subject: Re: AG stuff From: dsaville@unm.edu (David G. Saville) I wrote: >>Perhaps one hand use for really tall characters, but I don't see >>the reality of these mega weapons for short people. The weapon >>itself would outsize the character! Yeah, it's a fantasy game, >>but there has to be some realism. At least a restriction of >>two hand use for short people. Dave writes: : Well, the entire system would have to be changed then. It is :a known fact that str cancels height requirement. Paz, for instance, :can use a maul with no penalty and he is 36 inches tall. Hugh :envisions height requirements for leverage and str can provide :enough to cancel this. Start throwing realism into the game and :a whole kettle of worms gets opened up. I would hardly say it'd be the entire system that has to be changed. :) When inputting the weapons all it'd have to do is check your height in inches, if height is lower than a certain point than the weapon would have to be used two-handed. If it is, then set your primary hand to the weapon and set your off hand to fist (or buckler|gauntlet if you chose that). What I'm asking for is just some sort of restriction/penalty for hefting a 20 point weapon around if you're a midget. >>I disagree. Drackmoor, the elf, is already heading towards >>28 STR and already has daze 16! And he's only 2600 power. > Poor example. Drackmoor is worse than Dorvan as far as >scroll abuse. But the examples I listed _already exist_. >>I mentioned before, he could just go no armor, use a 20 point >>weapon and be close to no encumbrance, cast speed, cast daze >>once, swing once or twice, fight over. Blanka could also do >>this except he has his deadly (ha, yeah right) high level vertigo >>instead of daze. > You, of course, ignore the fact that people will respond >to this design. A L6 or 7 mindwall will spell death for this >unarmored fellow. And, if this design were so easy and deadly, >why dont we see it today? It seems that a heavy warhammer with You have already argued before at Gencon that hardly anyone raises mindwall to level 6 and above because we are hardly ever in guild fights. I agree. There is only a small percentage of characters that have mind wall 6 and above, and most, if not all of them, are in the 4000 power plus range. Put the super heavy design I had at 2000-3000 power against equal powered opponents and there is a difference. If Drackmoor or Blanka were at 4000 power, Drack's daze would be much more than level 16 and Blanka's now level 13 vertigo would also be higher. As for the design not in existance yet, it is, just not without the super heavy weapon yet. Blanka went 14-1 in tourney with his normal, 'wimpy' 4 point warhammer and only level 12 vertigo. As for Drackmoor not doing as well as Blanka in the tourney, hey, we're talking Andy here. ;) Aaron runs his guys much better. :) Anyways, the whole daze/super heavy weapon design is just hypothetical. I wouldn't want to sit through 2 years of 55-65% win/loss and not doing so hot on adventures, but eventually doing very well when a tourney rolls around. >The answer, I suspect, is that this guy would lose pleny of fights >prior to getting to you killer status and only the most patient >manager would attempt this. Even without the mindwall, a character >with significantly more action points will toast this guy by >closing to short. I agree that this guy would be toast in his transition phases, but in the long run he'll dominate. In example...Golden went around 30% win/loss to start then eventually came to 80% win/loss. Ripjack suffered in the middle of his career, but now he's dominating. Blanka who ran 35-40% win/loss is now going 6/7 in top group and 14-1 and 3 first places in tourney. Suffer at one point to reach another, higher level later is in every game. :) Just look at the Dallas Cowboys. ;) But for every suffering team that gets better, there will always be the consistant team. I could equate Paz with the 49ers. :) Paz loses to Vanya in the past tourneys, but now he's come back! (grin) Concerning the closing to short range, that is a specialized strategy and most players I know will go with the general strategy unless they specifically know who they will be facing. >>Perhaps Dave can dig up Paz's Singles stats as that will give a >>more accurate picture of how fast Paz really is (and he's only >>stats/init!). > Not sure why anyone would care, but if I get email from >a couple people saying they are interested, I will post the stats. I'm sure Vanya would care! ;) Mike ***** Subject: AG: More Power Ramblings From: dsaville@unm.edu (David G. Saville) Dave writes: > Say that a new character can get to 1000 power in 25 turns. An >older character, quite likely, took longer, lets say 35. This is >due to changes in the game that took place after the older fellow >was already past 1000. I think we can all agree that a character >today can get to 1000 power faster than an older fellow. > Can the older character go back in time to use these advantages? >Nope. Todd and Sean, this is what I've been trying to say. Figures Dave, or should I say Diamond Paz, comes up with the eloquent post. ;) >With regards to a couple of other posts, I do believe >that in order for new characters to catch older ones they need >to be designed and run better. If Paz, Golden, etc are great >designs and run perfectly, why should they be caught? (example >only, I know Paz is not run perfectly and others would probably >argue about his design) I also mucked up and spent a year and a half on Golden using CM-Power. I was so slow and never learned WSP. Two tourneys ago I got so fed up with no learns and losing to Graykor and Anvil Head due to energy problems (and also from going 5-50 against Paz at Gencon!), I said screw it and changed to just CM-Speed and nothing but attacking. Golden went from level 9 to level 12 in her longsword in 8 months. Her initial design could have been better also, but such is life. As for Paz, he wasted quite a bit of time with a medium shield strategy. :) > As it stands now, it is easier to get to the wall Todd speaks >of. So, if a character gets to the wall faster, he will likely >get over that wall sooner. Dont forget that the older characters >have been over the same ground. For example, should I start You're reading my mind, Pazzy. ;) Mike ***** Subject: AG: Weapons and Armor From: dsaville@unm.edu (David G. Saville) Dave writes: > I am currently of the feeling that heavier wpns and armor >need to be introduced at the same time. One can help cancel >the other. We have already beat to death the dangers of >introducing alot more offense. Perhaps worse, would be the >introduction of defense that was too good (you dont need to >train in wearing armor like you do a new wpn). If they both >go up concurrently, game balance should be maintained. For But I like heavy armor more than heavy weapons. :( ;) >chose the heaviest of everything. Righ now, gross str types >lose alot of benefit from their str because they can not add >equipment as they get stronger. I agree. The game has reached the point where there are _alot_ of characters out there closing in on 40+ strength. Perhaps only 1 or 2 more levels should be added to weapons and armor, that is until characters reach the next level which would be 60+ strength. Mike Up