ATLANTISv2 atl-design-digest #28

From: csd@microplex.com (Christian Daudt)

Date: Wed, 05 Jul 1995 00:00:00 +0000

I thought I was going to get thousands of responses asking me
to keep this digest (maybe I just wanted to massage my ego ;-))
But I received enough responses, so I'll keep the digest going.
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Date: Mon, 05 Jun 1995 11:43:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bryan C Willett <bill@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: alignment related ideas

Brand new to this game so these ideas have probably been
considered before but anyway...

Alignment should be added to this game in many ways.

The races should possess dispositions towards each other
altering their race-to-race attitudes, which would be based
on alignment or historical conflict.  Most of the races
would be neutral to each other but a few could have an arch-enemy
with whom they will usually be hostile towards. Chances of combat
would have to be small and then only between a minority of a units
people.

An alternative system could have the alignment of all units
of a faction declared by the player.

Part of the idea here would be to have the alignment system
incorporated within the economics and magical system, so that
certain actions, rewards, and spells are alignment dependent.

You'd have to redo the whole game for this so I guess it could
be considered for the next version.

Later,

Bryan

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From: tim.hruby@his.com (Tim Hruby)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 1995 15:03:07
Subject: Question: Flying movement

Geoff,

Do unfriendly (terrestrial) guards block a flying unit's movement into/through
their guarded hex?  I'd guess that as the game is currently coded, they do,
but perhaps it would make more sense if they didn't, given that a flyer could
easily evade ground troops.  This might be something to think about if you
adopt the suggestions made for the Riding skill a short while ago (which I
wholeheartedly endorse as, IMNSHO, a Good Idea(tm)).

Just food for thought, for the future when flying units become more
prevalent....
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From: tim.hruby@his.com (Tim Hruby)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 1995 15:03:07
Subject: Question: Flying movement

Geoff,

Just food for thought, for the future when flying units become more
prevalent....
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Subject: Flying units
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 1995 17:49:24 -0700
From: Anson Winsor <apwinsor@span.CS.UNLV.EDU>

It would make sense that bowman could shoot them down, and perhaps
block them in this manner, but hand to hand and swordmen could not
effect any movement against flying units.

What about flying units that go over ocean?
Are they safe as long as they keep flying and are landing?

do flying units see any of the terrain they pass over?

What if you use a spell to fly, will it dump you in the ocean at
the end of the turn? Can you recast the spell to keep flying?

Tim Hruby wrote:
Do unfriendly (terrestrial) guards block a flying unit's movement into/through
their guarded hex?  I'd guess that as the game is currently coded, they do,
but perhaps it would make more sense if they didn't, given that a flyer could
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From: Geoff Dunbar <atlantis@rahul.net>
Subject: Atlantis 2.0: atl-design list
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 95 15:09:23 -0700

This is a weekly posting for the atl-design mailing list. This list
is meant for anyone interested in the rules and design of Atlantis
2.0. The moderator of the Atlantis 2.0 game is on this list, so your
ideas could actually become reality! To send a message to everyone
on the list, send email to:

atl-design@tango.rahul.net

To subscribe or un-subscribe to this list, mail to
atlantis@rahul.net. Make sure you specify exactly what you want me
to do, because a lot of mail goes to this address.
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Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:34:49 -0700 (MST)
From: "Michael W. Lamb" <LAMBM@chemistry.byu.edu>
Subject: Re: Changes To Faction Rules [Long]

Agreed!  Agreed!  What about some established NPCs too?  (Master Mage
Guilds who can offer training, perhaps some GateMasters who provide
teleportation services, perhaps rulers whose favor can be influenced
by some Influence/Charm/Persuasion discipline . . . I know NPCs are
not very favored, but these would at least be useful to the players.
Perhaps even a Thieves'/Assassin's Guild that would temporarily put a
high-Stealth unit under your control . . . .)  These could perhaps be
NPC factions which can GIVE units temporarily to players or perhaps
just accept orders from players who pay them sufficiently.  They
could have a specific communication site on the server, so that any
email message addressed to them results in a communique about their
services being sent.  They could also have attitudes - beware of
making the Assassin's Guild HOSTILE to you . . . .

As for the overcrowding in A.C., who really cares?  People who
dislike it can leave.  What I would like to see is more exits, and I
don't know how that would work out - the revolving system still has
major overcrowding in the portal cities, and the big empires are
really crowding us little guys out.  For this to be a successful
eventual commercial game, people are going to have to be HAPPY with
the system, and newcomers may by and large get discouraged.

Try this idea on for size:

What about having a "Shadow Gate" instead of one of the exits in
Atlantis City?  People who pass through it, instead of ending up at a
definite location, are Shadow Jumped randomly on the map!  That would
be great!  You could allow for allies to go through together using a
LINK command - in other words, if two units both declare LINK to each
other, then they'll go through to the same location.  If not -
they'll be randomly scattered.  Thus you could send out ten explorers
to ten random sites, or send a whole group of allies through all at
once to the same place.  If you wanted to send people to a promising
spot once discovered, you could always pay a GateMaster to Gate you
there.

Hey!  It would give newcomers a decent chance and let the empire
builders have their way too - and maybe the newcomers might give the
empires a run for their money if they had a decent place to develope
without getting squashed.

What say you?
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From: Geoff Dunbar <atlantis@rahul.net>
Subject: Atlantis 2.0: atl-design list
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 95 22:04:34 -0700

atl-design@tango.rahul.net

To subscribe or un-subscribe to this list, mail to
atlantis@rahul.net. Make sure you specify exactly what you want me
to do, because a lot of mail goes to this address.
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Subject: AT2: Wages
From: Jens-Michael Krumm <krumm@informatik.tu-muenchen.de>
Date: 	Mon, 3 Jul 1995 12:23:16 +0200 (MESZ)

Hi!

[I switched to design list since this is a design matter!]

I agree that the tax base should go up if there is more
working in a hex but it also should decrease if there's taxing
there. The taxers take the money away from the local econmoy.

If we think about changing the system we have to inlcude
both changes. This would also prevent an unlimited amount of
taxable money.

JENS

--
         Jens Krumm         email: krumm@informatik.tu-muenchen.de
Schochenbergstr. 26         CompuServe: 100024,2707
   D-80686 Muenchen         Tel / Fax: +49-89-5704526
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From: Niclas Olofsson <m93nol@student.tdb.uu.se>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 13:31:48 +0200
Subject: Re: Changes To Faction Rules [Long]

Michael W. Lamb wrote:

>Try this idea on for size:
>
>What about having a "Shadow Gate" instead of one of the exits in
>Atlantis City?  People who pass through it, instead of ending up at a
>definite location, are Shadow Jumped randomly on the map!  That would
>be great!  You could allow for allies to go through together using a
>LINK command - in other words, if two units both declare LINK to each
>other, then they'll go through to the same location.  If not -
>they'll be randomly scattered.  Thus you could send out ten explorers
>to ten random sites, or send a whole group of allies through all at
>once to the same place.  If you wanted to send people to a promising
>spot once discovered, you could always pay a GateMaster to Gate you
>there.

Great idea!!

What else can I say?

/Niclas Olofsson
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From: Lewis Haddow <9235367@arran.sms.ed.ac.uk>
Date:          Mon, 3 Jul 1995 13:49:35 +0000
Subject:       Re: Wages

All this talk of economics is bothering me.  Atlantis 2, like so many
fantasy worlds, ought to be based on a Medieval-type world, and as
such there should be no complex money-dealings built into the rules.
Atlantis is not comparable to the corporation-controlled world that
we live in.  So stop being silly and get on with the game.
Think of Robin Hood:  When the Sheriff of Nottingham taxed the land,
the land became poorer, the population reduced and the capacity for
production fell.  When peasants did manual labour, everything
improved.  But even these details are not entirely necessary for the
game.
There is so much going on in terms of factions' activity, the world
is perfectly fine being static.  I think by now you should have all
realised that the players make the game work, not the rules.
LH
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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 95 09:12:46 PDT
From: "GDUNBAR.US.ORACLE.COM" <GDUNBAR@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Re:       teaching

--Boundary-11301660-0-0

Lists should not be separated by commas, but by spaces.

So:

TEACH 99 100 NEW 1

is the proper syntax.

Geoff

--Boundary-11301660-0-0
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Received: 03 Jul 1995 06:25:19                    Sent: 03 Jul 1995 06:24:44
From:"Lewis Haddow " <owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net>
To: atlantis@rahul.net,atl-players@tango.rahul.net,atl-design@tango.rahul.net
Subject:       teaching
Reply-to: owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net
X-Orcl-Application: Organization:   Student Mail Service
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Does the order
TEACH 99,100,NEW 1
work as expected?

--Boundary-11301660-0-0--
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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 95 09:22:50 PDT
From: "GDUNBAR.US.ORACLE.COM" <GDUNBAR@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Re: AT2: Wages

--Boundary-11301894-0-0

I may have missed some of this discussion, if it was on the
player list.

In the next version of Atlantis (2.1? 3.0?) I was planning on
having population go up and down. However, rather than being
based on taxing/working, I was planning on having it based on
trade. This will require the addition of "trade items", which
would be either bought or produced in most regions. These
would then be sold to cities & towns. The population of a
region would vary according to the amount of trade. Also,
cites/towns would grow or shrink according to whether they
were getting the proper amount of trade items. The exact
details still need to be worked out.

Also, I think Atlantis should move away from the system where
players can "take over" a region by working. I don't like the
things this adds to the game. So, working will probably become
just a way to make some income, rather than such a big deal.

Geoff

--Boundary-11301894-0-0
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Received: 03 Jul 1995 03:25:24                    Sent: 03 Jul 1995 03:25:15
From:"Jens-Michael Krumm " <owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net>
To: atl-design@tango.rahul.net,(Atl,Design,List)
Subject: AT2: Wages
Reply-to: owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net
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Hi!

[I switched to design list since this is a design matter!]

I agree that the tax base should go up if there is more
working in a hex but it also should decrease if there's taxing
there. The taxers take the money away from the local econmoy.

If we think about changing the system we have to inlcude
both changes. This would also prevent an unlimited amount of
taxable money.

JENS

--
         Jens Krumm         email: krumm@informatik.tu-muenchen.de
Schochenbergstr. 26         CompuServe: 100024,2707
   D-80686 Muenchen         Tel / Fax: +49-89-5704526

--Boundary-11301894-0-0--
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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 95 09:06:41 PDT
From: "GDUNBAR.US.ORACLE.COM" <GDUNBAR@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Re: Wages

--Boundary-11321957-0-0

As I have said before, the economic model is pretty weak in
Atlantis 2.0. I plan to spice it up a bit for the next version-
tax income will be able to change in a region. However, I was
planning on having the changes be based on trade rather than
on working. I don't particularly like WORK having such a large
effect, and it will probably be downgraded to being a way to
make some money in desparation, rather than having such a
great effect.

Geoff

--Boundary-11321957-0-0
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Received: 05 Jul 1995 06:33:28                    Sent: 05 Jul 1995 06:33:17
From:"JE 1996" <owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net>
To: atl-design@tango.rahul.net
Subject: Re: Wages
Cc: atl-players@tango.rahul.net
Reply-to: owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net
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Okay everyone, this should have been posted to atl-design from the
beginning, and should definitely not continue on the players list. I have
just forwarded the message to the design list. Please respond there.

For my .0002, these comments are very interesting but way too much for
the game right now. Geoff should consider them carefully for the next
version though.

Josh Mosher

On Sat, 1 Jul 1995, Neil M Matsui wrote:

> The economic model below sounds reasonable, but if a location
> can continually increase its taxes, this may cause some unbalance
> in the game.  Perhaps a logarithmic economic expansion might be
> the way to approach this.  Maybe the workers morale's would be
> affected by long work hours and high taxes.  There should also
> be fluctuations for random environmental factors (disease,
> inflation, etc.)
>
>
> On Sat, 1 Jul 1995, Kit Carson wrote:
>
> > Yes it does seem reasonable. We work, the economy improved, more
> > taxes are available. why not?
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 30 Jun 1995, McKinnon, Derek wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Just a suggestion for rules improvements.  It seems reasonable to me that if
> > > some people are working for wages in a region, then the tax base of that
> > > region must increse, both in the short and the longer term.  I don't know
> > > how the tax base is calculated at the moment, but this seems like a
> > > reasonable change.
> > >
> >
>

--Boundary-11321957-0-0--
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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 12:32:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Timothy Johann <tjohann@cco.caltech.edu>
Subject: Atlantis:wages

I'm just a newbie at this, but I don't see how an all mage faction could
support its' self and its' studies without wages.  Such a faction cannot
tax or produce so how does it survive?

Tim Johann