ATLANTISv2 atl-design-digest #29

From: csd@microplex.com (Christian Daudt)

Date: Sat, 08 Jul 1995 00:00:00 +0000

This is kept by me (csd@microplex.com)
If there are any problems, please tell me 'cause I normally
don't have enough time to read them.
If you want previous versions, they are available via WWW at
http://www.microplex.com/~csd/atlantisv2/
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From: "Jiri Klouda" <KLOUDA@novell.karlin.mff.cuni.cz>
Date:          Wed, 5 Jul 1995 23:29:09
Subject:       Re: Atlantis:wages

->I'm just a newbie at this, but I don't see how an all mage faction could
->support its' self and its' studies without wages.  Such a faction cannot
->tax or produce so how does it survive?
->
Hard from beginig but It goes. And income of magic faction grows.
You can trade with spells and magical items. You can also sell
treefolk or any else.
Jirka

* Origin: Ramdrive is write protect.          (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore
Jiri Klouda - Student of Faculty of Maths at Charles University
E-mail: klouda@novell.karlin.mff.cuni.cz
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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 11:00:46 PDT
From: "GDUNBAR.US.ORACLE.COM" <GDUNBAR@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Re: Mages

--Boundary-11350307-0-0

That's a bug that I just introduced this turn. Sorry.

Geoff

--Boundary-11350307-0-0
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Received: 06 Jul 1995 10:57:37                    Sent: 06 Jul 1995 10:56:38
From:"William Robinson " <owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net>
To: atl-design@tango.rahul.net
Subject: Mages
Reply-to: owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net
X-Orcl-Application: X-Mailer:  ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

--Boundary-11350307-0-0--
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From: William Robinson <bvsnbthd@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>
Subject: Mages
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 12:45:39 CDT

Not to be too reactive to new changes but, why do mages now show
what their combat spells are?
What mage in there right mind would broadcast "HEY I'M A MAGE!!!
steal from me!!!" much less broadcast an ineffective spell.
I just wanted to bring this up for discussion and see what everyone else
thought
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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 18:42:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Lazarus <llong@io.com>
Subject: Re: Mages

This is a good question.

I don't want everybody to know I have a mage ready for baattle.
Why this change?

On Thu, 6 Jul 1995, William Robinson wrote:

> Not to be too reactive to new changes but, why do mages now show
> what their combat spells are?
> What mage in there right mind would broadcast "HEY I'M A MAGE!!!
> steal from me!!!" much less broadcast an ineffective spell.
> I just wanted to bring this up for discussion and see what everyone else
> thought
>
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Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 22:25:35 -0400
From: xuequin@unix.asb.com (Mark Reid)
Subject: Re: Mages

>
>--Boundary-11350307-0-0
>
>That's a bug that I just introduced this turn. Sorry.
>
>Geoff
>

Why is this a "bug"? I like it. But I would urge it to become a
function of some particular OBS level. Maybe level 4 or so.
-MMR
Greenpoint faction (572)
xuequin@unix.asb.com
>
>--Boundary-11350307-0-0
>X-Orcl-Content-Type: message/rfc822
>
>Received: 06 Jul 1995 10:57:37                    Sent: 06 Jul 1995 10:56:38
>From:"William Robinson " <owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net>
>To: atl-design@tango.rahul.net
>Subject: Mages
>Reply-to: owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net
>X-Orcl-Application: X-Mailer:  ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
>
>
>Not to be too reactive to new changes but, why do mages now show
>what their combat spells are?
>What mage in there right mind would broadcast "HEY I'M A MAGE!!!
>steal from me!!!" much less broadcast an ineffective spell.
>I just wanted to bring this up for discussion and see what everyone else
>thought
>
>
>--Boundary-11350307-0-0--
>
>

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From: Dean Burton <dean@memex.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Mages
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 08:38:32 +-100

I think it would be best if a mage could hide the fact that he was a mage.  But be given the choice to reveal the combat spell so as to scare off units if the spell was powerful.

Dean.

----------
From: 	William Robinson
Sent: 	06 July 1995 18:45
To: 	atl-design@tango.rahul.net
Subject: 	Mages

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Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 09:20:14 PDT
From: "GDUNBAR.US.ORACLE.COM" <GDUNBAR@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Re: Mages

--Boundary-11369102-0-0

It's definitely a bug. The only way to determine a mage's
combat spell should be to fight the mage.

Geoff

--Boundary-11369102-0-0
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Received: 06 Jul 1995 19:34:50                    Sent: 06 Jul 1995 19:34:22
From:"Mark Reid" <owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net>
To: GDUNBAR@us.oracle.com
Subject: Re: Mages
Cc: atl-design@tango.rahul.net
Reply-to: owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net
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>
>--Boundary-11350307-0-0
>
>That's a bug that I just introduced this turn. Sorry.
>
>Geoff
>

--Boundary-11369102-0-0--
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Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 14:23:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Subject: Wages (and a suggestion)

Hi all, I'm a fairly recent joiner on the design list, but I caught the
last week's worth of wages commentary and I thought I'd throw in a
comment of my own.  These may have been mumbled before, but I wasn't
here :-)

*dons asbestos*

Wages should be variable more than they are.  The flat wage model, while
simple, just leads to people purchasing HUGE bodies of workers
working away.  While feasible, it's kinda boring.

What if instead each area has a base wage, modified by some kind of
"general" skill.  Thus, it becomes better, in the long run, to get
workers trained a little bit in your "general" skill than to send them
right to work as unskilled labour.

For example, a person with the following GENERAL skill level might make
the following (based on the $15 being average)
	LEVEL 0			$11 	(avg. -4)
	LEVEL 1			$15	(avg.)
	LEVEL 2			$25	(avg. +10)
	LEVEL 3			$40	(avg. +25)
	LEVEL 4			$60	(avg. +45)
	LEVEL 5			$100	(avg. +85)

This means that your just-purchased slaves won't make much money at all,
slowing down the rapid rate which people can make up leader expenses.  If
you train your workers a little, however, you speed up that rate as your
workers are no longer unskilled.  Basicly, your councilman (LEVEL 4) is
going to make more than your fish-gutter (LEVEL 0).

Now, allow ANY race to train general to level 3 or 4, as well, but only in
GENERAL.  A few might be able to train higher (mostly high-intelligence
races with educations).

Comments?

____        Robert A. Hayden      <=> Cthulhu Matata
\  /__          -=-=-=-=-         <=>          -=-=-=-=-
 \/  /  Finger for Geek Code Info <=> hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu
   \/   Finger for PGP Public Key <=> http://att2.cs.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden

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Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 14:49:55 -0500
From: jobollin@iumsc4.chem.indiana.edu (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re:  Wages (and a suggestion)

>Wages should be variable more than they are.  The flat wage model, while
>simple, just leads to people purchasing HUGE bodies of workers
>working away.  While feasible, it's kinda boring.

[Suggestion that amounts to basing wages on units' level in a new skill,
 deleted]

Whereas the suggestion makes logical sense, I remain opposed to adding
complexity to WORK orders or to the wage structure.  The benefits simply
do not balance the effort, and WORKing is a fairly minor aspect of the
game.  Besides, Geoff has said that he intends do reduce the impact of
WORKing for Atlantis 3, so why should he make it more complicated?

John Bollinger
Melvin's Marauders (105)
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Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 15:05:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Subject: Re: Wages (and a suggestion)

On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, John Bollinger wrote:

> Whereas the suggestion makes logical sense, I remain opposed to adding
> complexity to WORK orders or to the wage structure.  The benefits simply
> do not balance the effort, and WORKing is a fairly minor aspect of the
> game.

One of the things that seems unique about Atlantis compared to many other
PBeM games I've participated in is that the entire econmy is very rich.
Not necessarily complex, but just that players have dozens of ways to
make money.  From simple harvesting/selling of natural materials to using
those materials for secondary items to inter-person selling.  It's always
been my feeling that anything that adds to that richness (ie, by
producing more options for economic survival) is a good thing.  Atlantis
has a way to fairly easily add to that richness.

Yes, working is a minor aspect of the game.  There are dozens of minor
aspects to the game that weave together to form a tapestry of a rich
economic system.  Anything you can do to add colour to that system (and
not unbalance it in the process) is, IMHO, a good thing.

> Besides, Geoff has said that he intends do reduce the impact of
> WORKing for Atlantis 3, so why should he make it more complicated?

Of course, then this tirade is probably irrelevant :-)

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Date: Fri, 07 Jul 1995 15:18:11 -0700 (MST)
From: "Michael W. Lamb" <LAMBM@chemistry.byu.edu>
Subject: Weather Control

Pardon me if I'm being ignorant (i.e. if they already exist) but I
think there should be weather control spells as a subset of the
Nature discipline.  There could be various levels of impact and areas
of effect (i.e. a powerful mage could change the weather several
degrees from normal) and/or a powerful mage could affect more
territory (say level 1 could only improve the weather for a small
body of travelers, negating adverse impact on travel due to weather,
up to a level five mage being able to alter for 1-3 turns the weather
in one hex and the surrounding six hexes.)

I think it would be interesting; it would allow players to negate
and/or optimize production (is production weather-linked?  It could
be) as well as control or for that matter INVOKE adverse conditions.
It certainly would add a strategic element to the game which I for
one would find fascinating, and needn't take up too much extra code -
the subroutine passes from Geoff's control to the player if the
conditions are met.  Of course, there would have to be protocols for
multiple mages working for the same and/or different effects . . . .

Opinions, ladies and gentlemen?
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Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 16:50:15 -0500
From: jobollin@iumsc4.chem.indiana.edu (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re:  Weather Control

>Pardon me if I'm being ignorant (i.e. if they already exist) but I
>think there should be weather control spells as a subset of the
>Nature discipline.  There could be various levels of impact and areas
>of effect (i.e. a powerful mage could change the weather several
>degrees from normal) and/or a powerful mage could affect more
>territory (say level 1 could only improve the weather for a small
>body of travelers, negating adverse impact on travel due to weather,
>up to a level five mage being able to alter for 1-3 turns the weather
>in one hex and the surrounding six hexes.)
>
>I think it would be interesting; it would allow players to negate
>and/or optimize production (is production weather-linked?  It could
>be) as well as control or for that matter INVOKE adverse conditions.
>It certainly would add a strategic element to the game which I for
>one would find fascinating, and needn't take up too much extra code -
>the subroutine passes from Geoff's control to the player if the
>conditions are met.  Of course, there would have to be protocols for
>multiple mages working for the same and/or different effects . . . .
>
>Opinions, ladies and gentlemen?

Well, basically, the only affects that weather currently has on the game
are to slow movement during Winter (or Monsoon) season.  A Control Weather
spell might fit into the scheme of things, though the implementation would
need to be carefully worked out.  Geoff may already have one, as far as I
know.  Please note that this could be a highly useful spell, allowing much
faster movement for all units during adverse weather, or restricting
movement during good weather.

John Bollinger
Melvin's Marauders (105)
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Date: Fri, 07 Jul 1995 21:05:04 -0700 (MST)
From: "Michael W. Lamb" <LAMBM@chemistry.byu.edu>
Subject: Scrying spells

What about having a bevy of multifunctional scrying spells (say one
that lets you scan all hexes in a certain radius (essentially getting
a report as if you had a unit there) or hexes with a designated
coordinate?  Or another really interesting possibility is having a
Spirit Travel spell - where the magician gets to do astral projection
or somesuch.  Essentially, while in spirit form (s)he would have an
enormous movement rate (say 12 or so) with optimum conditions (say
one hex per movement point - you're not dealing with terrain, of
course!) and you get a report of every hex you pass through!  Or you
could have even more movement points (so you could move farther) but
charge an extra point to get a report (taking longer to look rather
than fly through).  Of course, the magician's body would become dead
weight and somewhat vulnerable back home; (s)he wouldn't be able to
cast spells or otherwise affect anything until reunited with the
body, and there could be perils or astral monsters involved . . .
perhaps even astral combat between powerful mages . . . or maybe
that's getting too complicated.  Or maybe not - I like the idea.
Spirit travelers would be invisible except to other spirit travelers
or perhaps magically assisted super-level observers or powerful mages
casting discerning detection spells . . . .  And of course cannot be
attacked except perhaps by very difficult spells.  (They might be
permitted to cast mind reading spells, perhaps.)

There is the matter of with what level of Observation a magician would
see the area.  He'd get his native bonus, of course, and perhaps help
from a Helm of Observation, and/or could increase his OBS level by
spending more time looking at an area - say one point per level of
OBS increase.

Movement orders for a Spirit Traveling mage could be somewhat like:
nw 2 ne 3 n 1 n 3   etc.  with the direction and then the amount of
time spent in an area - 1 passing right through and 6 studying it
with a level 5 observation!

Well, I think it's interesting.  What say you?
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From: SARIKAKIS ANDREAS <andrew@ergasya.tuc.gr>
Subject: Movement points
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 95 15:51:08 WETDST

As we know there are two things that decrease movement points.

One of them is monsoons and the other is winter.

From what I have seen monsoons can be as close as to one hex to other regions
   without them.

What seems strange is this.

That if you move to a hex where there is a monsoon you can have more movement
   points compared to those that you would have if you were at that hex.

For example
   you are in hex A and mounted
   you move to hex B and lose 1 movement point and have 3 movement points there

If you are in hex B and there is monsoon season then you have 2 movement
   points.

Strange?

Faction 181
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From: William Robinson <bvsnbthd@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu>
Subject: Re: Movement points
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 95 13:45:18 CDT

What hex are you in that doesn't have monsoon season coming up
next month? pratically ALL of cremona has it, at least I am not in any
hexes that dont..
However since this is a design topic what ever season it is should
only affect the cost to enter the hex, not total MP of the unit
so a horsey unit has 4 could move from a jungle under a monsoon
into a plains with normal weather with MP to spare however it couldnt
have any leftover if it moved the other direction.