ATLANTISv2 atl-design-digest #41

From: csd@microplex.com (Christian Daudt)

Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:00:00 +0000

This is kept by me (csd@microplex.com)
If there are any problems, please tell me 'cause I normally
don't have enough time to read them.
If you want previous versions, they are available via WWW at
http://www.microplex.com/~csd/atlantisv2/
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 17:00:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu>
Subject: Re: Finding owners of units

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On Wed, 2 Aug 1995, Bruce Onder wrote:

> Maybe a "POST" command to stake signs in your region.  You could say
> something like
>
> UNIT 9999
>         POST "Hear ye, all units must pay 5 SIL per turn to Tax Collector
> Joe or suffer the wrath of the Dragon Horde..."
>
> I would say that only a unit from the faction that is guarding the region
> can POST.

Well, a posting would be somewhat different that a MESSAGE.  A Message is
the type of thing delivered from one person to another.  A message to the
HEX is a message delievered to the leaders of all the factions in that
HEX and only last for one turn.

Now, what could happen is that any unit that is GUARDing in the hext can
POST something.  Only GUARD units should be able to post.  It's entered
similiar to MESSAGEs:

UNIT 666
POST
Go away!
We don't like them High Elf Heathens!
POST END

It appears on the turn report as follows:

POSTING FROM UNIT 666 (Unit Name)
Go away!
We don't like them High Elf Heathens!
More than one GUARDing unit can post a message.  If this leads to
confusion in the hex, welcome to the real world.

A posting remains for multiple turns until it is changed by the unit, the
unit dissappears (through death, disbanding, or moving from the hex), or is
eliminated by a "POST NONE" command.

Thoughts?

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Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 17:37:37 -0700 (MST)
From: "Michael W. Lamb" <LAMBM@chemistry.byu.edu>
Subject: Re:  Orders template

I would first of all like to agree with the suggestions about pulling
unit information into the orders template; I like it.  As for
messages, while it would be nice, it doesn't seem necessary
considering how we're already communicating.  It would allow you to
bespeak unknown factions far more easily, though; there's no reason
NOT to have it, Geoff willing.

On a slightly different note I would like to suggest that the turn
reports be slightly more personalized, in that they list all of
your units in an area sequentially, at the beginning of the
report for each area.  This would let you know at a glance
who you have in the area, although I know the orders template does
much of the same thing now; I would just prefer seeing them bunched
together.  I would also like to see some type of indicator of who
your allies are; i.e. if someone has declared you ally, his/her units
would then also be listed sequentially with some type of indicator,
right after your own.  I think this would save a lot of bookkeeping
for larger alliances.  It might also be wise to have the symbol next
to a unit (-/* currently) become a somewhat more complex code,
declaring your relationship with said faction (thus if you have
declared someone HOSTILE you can know immediately, as well as seeing
if transfers will work due to relations between factions.)

Perhaps it would do to have the units that appear ordered on your
area report ordered by your declared relationship - have a "SELF"
section, an "ALLY" section, a "FRIENDLY" section, a "NEUTRAL"
section, an "UNFRIENDLY" section, and a "HOSTILE" section.  (With
most of them falling in whatever section you declare as DEFAULT.)

Just my thoughts on the matter.  It would certainly help me when
trying to GIVE things to my allies without having to hunt through the
turn report and remember which ones they are.  There is a logical
parallel of the real world, too - allies tend to stay in close
contact with one another.

Comments?
----------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Orders template
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 18:24:39 -0700
From: Anson Winsor <apwinsor@sleepy.CS.UNLV.EDU>

I have been seeing some agreement that the Orders Template,
as super great as it is, could be even better if it included
the whole unit description.

Like I said, this would save me a lot of time and also a lot
of possible errors because I currently am inclined to make a
few mistakes as I have to keep referring back to the whold]
whole report to see what the unit has.

I wonder what Geoff would think about putting it all in.

Anson
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 22:44:50 -0500
From: Doug Thayer <thayer@uis.edu>
Subject: Re: Orders template

>I would like the template with the same information about my units
>as the turn report currently has.

There is such a program!  It is included as part of the Monzon Register,
available free of charge to atlantis players everywhere.

parse.turn v1.1 is a PERL script (should run on most UNIX systems) that
takes your turn report and parses it (duh), producing an orders template
superior to the one provided with your turn.  The template includes the
data about your unit as seen in the regional reports *as well as* events
relating to that particular unit.  Also, regions appearing in your report
will appear in the template, allowing easy reference to markets, wages
and producibles.

I have no mages, so if you are a magic faction and magic faction reports
somehow appear differently, **it won't work**.  However, if your a plain
vanilla war, war/trade, or trade faction, it almost certainly will work.

Expected in version 1.2 is code to handle units inside structures.

>It would make the turn so much easier. I wouldn't have to spend the
>time to delete all other information.

The Monzon Register is available on-line:
WWW: http://eagle.uis.edu/~thayer/monzon.txt
MAILBOT: thayer@uis.edu, subject "MONZON REGISTER"

example template:

----------------------------------------------------------
#ATLANTIS 289

; Monzon Wood Exchange (289) (Trade)
; May, Year 2

; Stinchar (47,6), city, 2294 peasants (tribesmen), $11470.
; ------------------------------------------------------------
; The weather was clear last month; it will be clear next month.
;   Wages: $15.
;   Wanted: 190 iron at $60, 150 stone at $60, 135 horses at $36, 200
;     swords at $120, 495 plate armor at $500, 485 wagons at $200.
;   For Sale: 229 tribesmen at $60, 45 leaders at $120, 490 furs at
;     $120, 495 fish at $72, 300 longbows at $240.
;   Entertainment available: $573.
;   Products: none.

; * Roving Entertainer (1697), Monzon Wood Exchange (289), avoiding,
;   behind, high elf, 30 silver. Skills: entertainment 2 (90).

;  Gives 60 silver to Unit (3337)
;  Earns 40 silver entertaining
UNIT 1697

; * Unit (3337), Monzon Wood Exchange (289), tribesman, 5 silver.
;   Skills: none.

;  Buys tribesman at $60 each
;  Earns 15 silver working
UNIT 3337

;
; Monzon (12,12), city, 1916 peasants (tribal elves), $9580.
; ------------------------------------------------------------
; The weather was clear last month; it will be clear next month.
;   Wages: $15.
;   Wanted: 280 herbs at $36, 385 chain armor at $120, 400 wagons at
;     $120.
;   For Sale: 191 tribal elves at $60, 38 leaders at $120, 305 iron at
;     $120, 340 wood at $72, 480 stone at $120, 350 furs at $72, 320
;     swords at $240, 210 longbows at $144.
;   Entertainment available: $479.
;   Products: none.

; * Carpenter (2021), Monzon Wood Exchange (289), avoiding, behind,
;   leader. Skills: observation 0 (15), carpenter 3 (210).

;  Studies carpenter
UNIT 2021

; * Bjarne (2173), Monzon Wood Exchange (289), leader. Skills: combat 3
;   (180), shipbuilding 1 (30); Mighty berserk with a thing for wood and
;   C++.

;  Studies combat
UNIT 2173

; * Courier (2309), Monzon Wood Exchange (289), avoiding, behind, high
;   elf, 10 wood, magic wagon. Skills: none.

;  Gives 50 silver to Lumberjacks (2310)
;  Walks from Carnforth (12,11) to Monzon (12,12)
UNIT 2309

;
; Carnforth (14,12), forest, 268 peasants (sea elves), $804.
; ------------------------------------------------------------
; The weather was clear last month; it will be clear next month.
;   Wages: $13.
;   Wanted: none.
;   For Sale: 26 sea elves at $52, 5 leaders at $104.
;   Entertainment available: $40.
;   Products: 28 wood, 12 furs, 16 herbs.

; * WoodCutter (3147), Monzon Wood Exchange (289), avoiding, behind,
;   high elf, 3 silver. Skills: lumberjack 1 (30).

;  Earns 13 silver working
UNIT 3147

;
; Ellesmere (47,54), town, 894 peasants (vikings), $6258.
; ------------------------------------------------------------
; It was winter last month; it will be winter next month.
;   Wages: $17.
;   Wanted: 190 iron at $36, 200 wood at $36, 85 horses at $60.
;   For Sale: 89 vikings at $68, 17 leaders at $136, 205 fish at $120,
;     225 herbs at $72.
;   Entertainment available: $312.
;   Products: none.

; * Dog:-faced Boy (1698), Monzon Wood Exchange (289), avoiding, behind,
;   39 silver, high elf. Skills: entertainment 1 (30).

;  Earns 17 silver working
UNIT 1698

#END

>Anson

Doug
Monzon Wood Exchange (289)
thayer@uis.edu

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Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 23:53:17 -0700
From: bonder@earthlink.net (Bruce Onder)
Subject: Re: Finding owners of units

At 3:55 PM 8/2/95, Larry Morris wrote:

>Hmmm. How about trying:
>UNIT 9999
>  FORM 1
>     NAME UNIT "Signpost"
>     DESCRIBE UNIT "Hear ye, all units..."
>     BUY 1 plainsman
>     work
>  END

I'm already doing this!  It would be nice to be able to see any postings
separate from the unit list, though.

>Related note, however: it would be fun to allow player factions to change
>the name of regions, cities, etc. to other (unique) names, if they "control"
>the region (perhaps based on exclusive occupation or some percentage of total
>troops).

I like this, too!

Bruce Onder                      | We write and design computer games.
Digital Arcana                   | Ask about our interactive underpants.
310.519.5993                     |
310.837.8533 fax                 | Or don't.

----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 00:16:11 -0700
From: bonder@earthlink.net (Bruce Onder)
Subject: Re:  Orders template

At 5:37 PM 8/2/95, Michael W. Lamb wrote:

>On a slightly different note I would like to suggest that the turn
>reports be slightly more personalized, in that they list all of
>your units in an area sequentially, at the beginning of the
>report for each area.

Although I like the idea, I think it's done this way so you can see who's
been in the region longest.  I don't know if that's useful information to
anyone or not.

I would sort of like to see the "Events during turn:" information grouped
under each region, though... :)

>It might also be wise to have the symbol next
>to a unit (-/* currently) become a somewhat more complex code,
>declaring your relationship with said faction (thus if you have
>declared someone HOSTILE you can know immediately, as well as seeing
>if transfers will work due to relations between factions.)

That would be a nice touch.

----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 00:16:01 -0700
From: bonder@earthlink.net (Bruce Onder)
Subject: Re:  Orders template

At 4:31 PM 8/2/95, John Bollinger wrote:
>I use an orders checker to save me from typing errors.

Same here.  I don't rely on the template to assure anything, just to
organize my thoughts when I write my orders.

>In order to include all the information that would be necessary to make
>the template useful to me, it would have to become a duplicate of the
>main part of the report.  This would be a waste of time, effort, and
>bandwidth.

The template is quite useful (to me!) as it stands.  If I could see my
silver and maybe skills for each unit it would be primo.

----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 10:50:35 -0400
From: nims@cris.com (Mike Inman)
Subject: Atlantis 2-3 Design Stuff

O.K. so my last message was a little long, but I really would like to
hear some reaction to my proposed faction point system:

Factions start with 5 points, and may spend them to get
(the ability to use):

Points  Regions  Mages
----------------------
   1       1       1
   2       6       2
   3      18       3
   4      40       4
   5      75       4 (No absolutely pure magic factions here)

Any comments???

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a new (spin on an old) idea: Most players would agree that the Times
is far too big to enjoy reading.  Personally, I know the faction numbers
of the players who I am interested in, so I skip to where their articles
might be located.  The Times is supposed to be anonymous, so here's another
idea:

Articles could be published with location specific wrappers, for example:

#BEGIN 12,12

Article about Monzon

#END
#BEGIN 63,35

Article about Moriander

#END

Articles without wrappers would be assumed to apply to the whole world.
Players could then run a script to pick up only those regions of interest
to them (for example, they could build a list of all regions within 8
hexes of current operations, again, this list _could_ be automatically
generated....)

Really, this depends more on players putting in the headers, and other
players writing sorting scripts for various platforms, than it depends
on Geoff to do anything.  Geoff could encourage the use of headers by
rewarding 60 SIL for a location specific article (or 40 SIL for a non-
specific one, or whatever).  Otherwise, I think players would be about
as likely to use the headers as they are to put Atlantis in the subject
line of their mail.

Mike Inman
NIMS@CRIS.COM

----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:30:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Heinen <jeffh@ee.pdx.edu>
Subject: Re: Atlantis 2-3 Design Stuff

On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Mike Inman wrote:

> O.K. so my last message was a little long, but I really would like to
> hear some reaction to my proposed faction point system:
>
> Factions start with 5 points, and may spend them to get
> (the ability to use):
>
> Points  Regions  Mages
> ----------------------
>    1       1       1
>    2       6       2
>    3      18       3
>    4      40       4
>    5      75       4 (No absolutely pure magic factions here)
>
> Any comments???

Well, This system (As I understand it) Does not truley solve the problem
of an alliances with one trade, one war and lots of magic factions. In
fact, allowing only 4 mages, helps to encourage it.

For me, it looks like you would have to make the War and Trade factions
less sustaining. So one War could suport itself, but only with
several war and trade factions could you support a magic faction.

I see the problem as the War factions get too rich, too fast and dont
lose it and therfore can support several Magic factions.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On a new (spin on an old) idea: Most players would agree that the Times
> is far too big to enjoy reading.  Personally, I know the faction numbers
> of the players who I am interested in, so I skip to where their articles
> might be located.  The Times is supposed to be anonymous, so here's another
> idea:
>
> Articles could be published with location specific wrappers, for example:
>
> #BEGIN 12,12
>
> Article about Monzon
>
> #END
> #BEGIN 63,35
>
> Article about Moriander
>
> #END
>
> Articles without wrappers would be assumed to apply to the whole world.
> Players could then run a script to pick up only those regions of interest
> to them (for example, they could build a list of all regions within 8
> hexes of current operations, again, this list _could_ be automatically
> generated....)
>
> Really, this depends more on players putting in the headers, and other
> players writing sorting scripts for various platforms, than it depends
> on Geoff to do anything.  Geoff could encourage the use of headers by
> rewarding 60 SIL for a location specific article (or 40 SIL for a non-
> specific one, or whatever).  Otherwise, I think players would be about
> as likely to use the headers as they are to put Atlantis in the subject
> line of their mail.

I like this. I have trouble skimming through all the spam. Mabey if each
section had a special subheader. And you would just have to search for a
pecific word. Searching for a word is better then having to make a
script, not every machine will have a scripting program.

I may even put it up on my Web-pages in section order. :_)

> Mike Inman
> NIMS@CRIS.COM

-Jeff

-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
               _       __  __   _   _      _
              | | ___ / _|/ _| | | | | ___(_)_ __   ___ _ __
           _  | |/ _ \ |_| |_  | |_| |/ _ \ | '_ \ / _ \ '_ \
          | |_| |  __/  _|  _| |  _  |  __/ | | | |  __/ | | |
           \___/ \___|_| |_|   |_| |_|\___|_|_| |_|\___|_| |_|
                                        	 jeffh@ee.pdx.edu
-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-

----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Aug 1995 11:25:57 -0400
From: nims@cris.com (Mike Inman)
Subject: Atlantis - Orders Template

Me again,

About the orders templates - what I typically do is pick up the last
turn's orders set and "Send Again", then edit the individual sections
appropriately.  As it stands, the orders template in the turn report
isn't terribly useful.

In my orders, each Unit starts with a Comment line, telling the Unit
Name, how many of what kind of men, and skill info.  I have to flip back
and forth between the orders and turn report to get the current SIL info
for each unit.  Having last months orders is handy, since many units do
the basically the same thing every month (TAX WORK TAX STUDY TAX YAWN...)

If the orders template would include the Unit's # of men, skills, and
current possessions, I'd find it useful.  If it would also include
last months orders, it'd be awesome.

Personally, I like having the challenge of writing correct orders, since
it means that my opponents occasionally screw up, giving me the advantage.
However, there was one week that I only had an hour to read my report and
generate new orders, and that week I did manage to make a few mistakes of
my own too.

Mike Inman
NIMS@CRIS.COM

----------------------------------------------------------
From: tim.hruby@his.com
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 95 13:55:33
Subject: Shadow Sight

I have a question about the spell Shadow Sight.

(If you don't want to see a spoiler, delete now.  Message follows after
many line feeds).

None of my Magic friends seem to even want to use this spell, and I have a
theory as to why.

The spell premits you to travel ethereally to any region on atlantis and get
data on the region type and the types of the surrounding hexes.  You (probably)
do not get full economic data, and you don't see any of the units in the
region.  This takes a full month CAST order.

In my view, this information is almost useless, from an intelligence
gathering standpoint, and certainly not worth the waste of a month.
Most of the mages I know seem to agree.

I'm interested to hear if the are any mages that actually use this spell,
or might consider using it.  Speak up!

My proposal (assuming there is general agreement that this spell is not
worth it) to correct the situation is simple:  either make it an immediate
CAST spell (useful for very basic global mapping by an organization of
mages) or provide more information for the month-long version to make it
useful as a reconnaisance spell (at least economic information and
structures, and maybe unit data).  Unit data could also be limited by
some means, for example [a] impose a -2 (?) OBS penalty on the viewing
mage, or [b] only allow units with more than 10(?) men to be seen.
Option [a] is probably more in keeping with the feel of the game.

Comments?  Observations?

----------------------------------------------------------
From: Geoff Dunbar <atlantis@rahul.net>
Subject: Atlantis 2.0: atl-design list
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 21:20:34 -0700

This is a weekly posting for the atl-design mailing list. This list
is meant for anyone interested in the rules and design of Atlantis
2.0. The moderator of the Atlantis 2.0 game is on this list, so your
ideas could actually become reality! To send a message to everyone
on the list, send email to:

atl-design@tango.rahul.net

To subscribe or un-subscribe to this list, mail to
atlantis@rahul.net. Make sure you specify exactly what you want me
to do, because a lot of mail goes to this address.
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:06:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Heinen <jeffh@ee.pdx.edu>
Subject: Idea for times

Another idea to shorten times,
	If you divide Atlantis Proper into Regions, and allow each region
to have its own local times. Sending to local times would only get your
message to a smaller region, but you would have more of a chance of being
read. (I just skim the times now. I would perfer several shorter messages
then one long one, but I know others are the other way around.)

I know something list this was already suggested, but if I remember
correctly it was for posting a Message in a hex. My comment is that I
think turns are long enough already.

Is the Good?/bad?/Stupid?

-Jeff

-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
     Jeff Heinen                           The Computer Action Team

The Un-named CAT
     jeffh@ee.pdx.edu                      cat@ee.pdx.edu
     http://www.ee.pdx.edu/~jeffh/         http://www.cat.pdx.edu/

----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 13:42:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joshua Mosher (JE 1996)" <mosherj@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Subject: Re: Idea for times

On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, Jeff Heinen wrote:

> Another idea to shorten times,
> 	If you divide Atlantis Proper into Regions, and allow each region
> to have its own local times. Sending to local times would only get your
> message to a smaller region, but you would have more of a chance of being
> read. (I just skim the times now. I would perfer several shorter messages
> then one long one, but I know others are the other way around.)
>
I think this has been the best idea. It would be good to preserve a
Pan-Atlantis Times so that world-wide matters could still be presented.
The addition of a local Times would make both local and world-wide issues
more readable. I do not think that we should penalize people for writing
to the Pan-Atlantis Times though. It is good to have something to bind
everyone together.

> I know something list this was already suggested, but if I remember
> correctly it was for posting a Message in a hex. My comment is that I
> think turns are long enough already.
>
Definitely. The thought of having to wade through scores of useless
messages just to get to my report is horrifying. I want the option of
ignoring the Times if I need to rush.

Joshua Mosher
----------------------------------------------------------
From: "ROB PETERS" <RPeters@Defender.Defenders.org>
Date:          Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:28:03 EST
Subject:       Re: Idea for times

Because I reside in an isolated portion of Atlantis, a regional rag
would only have me as a contributor -- not very interesting.  So I
enjoy reading about what's happening in the more populous provinces.
For that reason, I find factual articles about battles, etc., more
interesting than the accounts that are largely works of fiction.  But
to each their own.  Rob

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> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 13:42:33 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Joshua Mosher (JE 1996)" <mosherj@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
> X-Sender: mosherj@morpheus
> To: Jeff Heinen <jeffh@ee.pdx.edu>
> Cc: Atlantis Design List <atl-design@tango.rahul.net>
> Subject: Re: Idea for times
> In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950817093638.4845B-100000@jetsam.ee.pdx.edu>
> Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950817133724.19896A-100000@morpheus>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> X-PMFLAGS: 35127424
>
> On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, Jeff Heinen wrote:
>
> > Another idea to shorten times,
> >   If you divide Atlantis Proper into Regions, and allow each region
> > to have its own local times. Sending to local times would only get your
> > message to a smaller region, but you would have more of a chance of being
> > read. (I just skim the times now. I would perfer several shorter messages
> > then one long one, but I know others are the other way around.)
> >
> I think this has been the best idea. It would be good to preserve a
> Pan-Atlantis Times so that world-wide matters could still be presented.
> The addition of a local Times would make both local and world-wide issues
> more readable. I do not think that we should penalize people for writing
> to the Pan-Atlantis Times though. It is good to have something to bind
> everyone together.
>
> > I know something list this was already suggested, but if I remember
> > correctly it was for posting a Message in a hex. My comment is that I
> > think turns are long enough already.
> >
> Definitely. The thought of having to wade through scores of useless
> messages just to get to my report is horrifying. I want the option of
> ignoring the Times if I need to rush.
>
> Joshua Mosher
>