ATLANTISv2 atl-design-digest #42 From: csd@microplex.com (Christian Daudt) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 00:00:00 +0000 This is kept by me (csd@microplex.com) If there are any problems, please tell me 'cause I normally don't have enough time to read them. If you want previous versions, they are available via WWW at http://www.microplex.com/~csd/atlantisv2/ ---------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:06:47 -0400 From: lam@diamond.eng.tridom.com (Larry Morris) Subject: Re: Idea for times > > > > On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, Jeff Heinen wrote: > > > > > Another idea to shorten times, > > > If you divide Atlantis Proper into Regions, and allow each region > > > to have its own local times. Sending to local times would only get your > > > message to a smaller region, but you would have more of a chance of being > > > read. (I just skim the times now. I would perfer several shorter messages > > > then one long one, but I know others are the other way around.) Oh dear. Whereever would we nice folks of the PolyChromatic Pirates end up, anyway? We're not exactly sure what our local region *is* anymore, what with all that unchecked expansion ;-) And with all the shadow-jumps, and our goal to spread Piracy across the whole planiverse, why, we're Coming To A Neighborhood Near You! Hmmm. Another idea to shorten the Times. Eliminate the Atlantis City contributions. If they're still there after all this time, they probably don't have much useful to say. On second thought...never mind. We can probably manage this on our own, given a bit of time ;-) -Crimson Robes (60). ---------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 12:37:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Heinen <jeffh@ee.pdx.edu> Subject: Re: Idea for times On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, Larry Morris wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, Jeff Heinen wrote: > > > > > > > Another idea to shorten times, > > > > If you divide Atlantis Proper into Regions, and allow each region > > > > to have its own local times. Sending to local times would only get your > > > > message to a smaller region, but you would have more of a chance of being > > > > read. (I just skim the times now. I would perfer several shorter messages > > > > then one long one, but I know others are the other way around.) > > Oh dear. Whereever would we nice folks of the PolyChromatic Pirates end up, > anyway? We're not exactly sure what our local region *is* anymore, what > with all that unchecked expansion ;-) > > And with all the shadow-jumps, and our goal to spread Piracy across the > whole planiverse, why, we're Coming To A Neighborhood Near You! Hmmm. > > Another idea to shorten the Times. Eliminate the Atlantis City contributions. > If they're still there after all this time, they probably don't have much > useful to say. > > On second thought...never mind. We can probably manage this on our own, > given a bit of time ;-) > > -Crimson Robes (60). > Another addition is to request the regional times for another region, for thoes who are all alone, or just want to read all of them. ( Like me, I just want several small files.. :_) ) -Jeff -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=- Jeff Heinen The Computer Action Team The Un-named CAT jeffh@ee.pdx.edu cat@ee.pdx.edu http://www.ee.pdx.edu/~jeffh/ http://www.cat.pdx.edu/ ---------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:42:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu> Subject: Re: Idea for times -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The proper solution is that the Time remains as it is. Any regional news is sent utilizignt eh MESSAGE command we discussed last week. This will lead to much of the regional news no longer being posted to the Times (unless people just want to collect $50). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: PGP Signed with PineSign 2.2 iQCVAwUBMDN/nTokqlyVGmCFAQFc9wP+ObPwtMwKxhM6wYrr05Asw6Qm1d54KY6l hiZO2ZjHX++Ar0+92YOMnrjoLnrI0JJGXWWCXM8lowJZ94WyRljq93GunRY2sY8F NjS70Z1qGJt5ieq7z+a4v9XispZHOrAA7c1SzlaggQpGsoNN7Huv6fzyLL+d5LvK 8yejpizBKc8= =XGsf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu \ /__ Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Finger for PGP Public Key \/ / -=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=- \/ http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/Welcome.html -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GED/J d-- s:++>: a-- C++(++++) ULU++ P+ L++ E---- W+(-) N++++ o+ K+++ w--- O- M+ V-- PS++>$ PE++>$ Y++ PGP++ t- 5+++ X++ R+++>$ tv+ b+ DI+++ D+++ G+++++ e++ h r-- y++** ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ---------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 12:58:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Heinen <jeffh@ee.pdx.edu> Subject: Re: Idea for times On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, Robert A. Hayden wrote: > > The proper solution is that the Time remains as it is. Any regional news > is sent utilizignt eh MESSAGE command we discussed last week. This will > lead to much of the regional news no longer being posted to the Times > (unless people just want to collect $50). I feel that the MESSAGE command is not proper because it would only increase the size of turn sheets, which for many are already too long. And yes, it would reduce the regional news in the times. That is the reason the regional time would be created. The "Pan-Atlantis Times" would be for messages to all of atlantis. (ie. GM messages, Announcements) And the regionals would comtain most of the claim reports (execpt for the Large ClaimLog). Those that want it all, can ask for it all. -Jeff -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=- Jeff Heinen The Computer Action Team The Un-named CAT jeffh@ee.pdx.edu cat@ee.pdx.edu http://www.ee.pdx.edu/~jeffh/ http://www.cat.pdx.edu/ ---------------------------------------------------------- From: yaj@cc.gatech.edu (Jay Luo) Subject: Times ideas Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 23:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Some possible suggestions: Each faction could have a "reporter" unit; the reporter unit would default to the first unit in the faction's turn report, but could be set to another unit through some command. Times contributions could then be sorted based on the X-Y coordinates of the reporter unit of the faction who submitted them, instead of being sorted by faction number as it currently is. Also, I'd like to suggest that instead of awarding a flat 50 unclaimed silver per Times article, the reward be changed to 10 unclaimed silver plus 10 times the number of "votes" your last article got; each faction would be entitled to submit 4 "votes" per turn, on which article in the last times was the best. They could not vote for their own article, and the 4 votes would have to be for different articles. This way, the more interesting articles would garner more votes and thus be more rewarding, while people sending messages saying "Here's my times article, gimme my 50 silver" would get not nearly as much. If someone can regularly publish an article which everyone likes, they may even be able to make a respectable income from it. This idea does have a couple problems I can see, though: namely, allies might collude to vote for each others' articles to gain money, and most people might be too lazy to vote for which articles they thought were worthwhile. But, I do think it would be nice if the well-thought out, informative, well-written, etc., articles got more of a reward than the junk. ---------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 00:43:43 -0700 From: bonder@earthlink.net (Bruce Onder) Subject: Re: Idea for times At 2:28 PM 8/17/95, ROB PETERS wrote: >Because I reside in an isolated portion of Atlantis, a regional rag >would only have me as a contributor -- not very interesting. So I >enjoy reading about what's happening in the more populous provinces. >For that reason, I find factual articles about battles, etc., more >interesting than the accounts that are largely works of fiction. But >to each their own. Rob Why not keep the big times along with the regionals, but in your orders you could specify which times you want? For instance: SEND WORLD TIMES or SEND NAIRN, CREMONA TIMES A list at the top of the times report you receive could update you on the regions available. Bruce Onder | We write and design computer games. Digital Arcana | Ask about our interactive underpants. 310.519.5993 | 310.837.8533 fax | Or don't. ---------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 00:37:37 -0400 From: minman1@ix.netcom.com (M. Inman) Subject: Atlantis Design Thoughts/Ramblings I hate to keep plugging my own idea, but I'd like a reaction from Geoff himself on my (yet again, here it is) faction point table: Points Regions Mages ---------------------- 1 1 1 2 6 2 3 18 3 4 40 4 5 75 4 (I promise, this is the last time I'll post that) I fully agree that WAR factions have far too much advantage, and that large alliances basically must consist of one war one trade many magic factions within this system, but since the faction point system seems to be staying with Atlantis, I thought this would make a more interesting and better playing table than any of those proposed so far.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding War being too powerful: If Atlantis is not to be a War game (which, right now, Atlantis 2 seems to me mostly a Xenophobic, scare your neighbors out of your land then build up and go kill them, kind of game) then War must lose some of its advantage over the Trade and Magic people. There seems to be consensus that TAX is a far more powerful order than anything available to Trade or Magic factions, it generates moderately large income with no time or movement penalties, and very little training investment. I would suggest offsetting this in several ways: 1. Make TAX income dependant on COM level, say 20 SIL per level. This way, wimpy little new recruits can only earn a measley 20 silver, while big brute COM3 guys can pull in 60 silver per man per month. This way, TAX income sort of tracks PRODUCE output, where more skilled men are more economically valuable. 2. Give Trade and Magic some kind of analogous command whereby they can make money every turn, while doing other things. For Trade, if they could Produce some kind of food, instead of eating Silver, this would at least give them a way to stay alive without having to run into the marketplaces all the time (I've noticed that movement is one of the most costly aspects of the game). 3. If units were allowed to execute multiple "month long" orders, at the cost of having their output reduced accordingly, this might allow the breadwinners to study while increasing their skill. TAX could be changed to a month long order as well, so a COM1 man who would otherwise earn 20 silver taxing, might earn 10 silver taxing while studying 15 days toward COM2. To get fancy, one might say: TAX TAX STUDY, thereby earning 2/3 of the month's normal TAX income and 1/3 of the normal STUDY time. This would also offset some of the cost of movement, since one could actually move somewhere AND do something in the same month. Of course, movement points would be reduced like everything else, but a man with a few magic wagons in a forest might possibly go to the hex next door, recruit some Vikings (since Sea-Elves are lousy Lumberjacks), and bring them back, all in one turn. UNIT 1840 (has 3 magic wagons, therefore 4 MPs) MOVE NE (through forest, thus requires 2 MPs, or 15 days) GIVE NEW 3 700 SIL GIVE NEW 3 2 "Magic Wagon" FORM 3 (15 days were already gone when this happened, so they have 1/2 MPs) NAME UNIT "New Jacks" BUY 10 VIK MOVE SW END MOVE SW (this requires the remaining 15 days) Orders like MOVE have fixed time that they require, whereas TAX or STUDY are flexible, so when a UNIT's orders are processed, the fixed time orders would be taken out first, then the flexible orders would evenly divide whatever time is left over. I don't know if Geoff wants to get into the coding hassle for this, but I think it would go a long way toward addressing the problem that some things (like MOVEing) just take way too much game time. 4. Magic faction might develop some Trade-Like spells that they can cast to earn money from the populace. Entertaining with fireworks is one thing, but if I were a peasant, I'd be more than willing to give Merlin several man-months maintenance of Silver or food if he'd do something useful, like enchant the village (driving away flies, bringing cool breezes, etc. etc.) Hey, it might even (temporarily) raise the local economy a notch or two. This money for Merlin might come out of the TAX base, or if the tax base were increased by the spell, Merlin might just get the excess.... Finally, in defense of TAX, if it weren't for TAX, I'd be pretty well bored with Atlantis by now. Quick, easy income gives one the ability to realistically dream about what might be, hey, just recruit 10 new men, tax for 500 SILver, recruit 10 more, tax for 1000 SILver, then start buying plate armor for the leaders..... Watching the initial 5000 silver slowly dwindle, hoping to be able to build up to a break-even point before going broke doesn't sound like fun. Right now, that's what the pure Trade and Magic factions are doing, unless they have a War partner. That's why I'm War/Trade. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding the 1 War 1 Trade 327 Magic faction alliance problem: Really, I don't think this is too much of a problem, if the mages are kept spread out somehow. If a pure War faction actually has 75 Magic allies, then let him have 4 mages defending each hex, but pleeeeease don't let all 300 mages gang up in one spot. I met a consortium of newbies near Yakleks, and they essentially walked in and kicked me out of a hex where I had been merrily taxing and recruiting away for 6 months. Yeah, so they were bigger than me, and they wanted the TAX income, and as they stated, they were willing to kill me to get it, and they did so. If I had had another 3 months of TAX income, I could have gotten my lumberjacks and carpenters on-line and would have been making more selling wagons in Tolsta than I was TAXing the forest, but due to this conflict of interest, I got slaughtered. If I had bowed down to them right away, it would have taken me over a year to earn enough WORKing to re-train my existing COMbat troops as producers, I'd rather die, and so I did. I guess the point to that story is that a big alliance brought its full force against my respectable (20 COM2 troops, TAC2 leader) forest dwelling defense force and wiped me clean off the map. If these mega- alliances of magic factions are allowed to concentrate their mages (with 10 attacks per round, COM27 effective fighting ability, cloak of invisibility +23 defense against missile attack, etc. etc. ad nauseum) all into one region, it's going to be demoralizing to the rest of the players who essentially can't do anything against these guys. Even a well established faction, who has 200 COM3 troops per hex in three adjacent hexes (in other words, it's all the land can do just to feed these guys) would not be able to resist the onslaught of 50 of these super-combat mages. And the mages can move around freely, since they only require 20 silver per man maintenance, whereas moving a 600 man army requires some 6000 silver of income per turn, which can be pretty hard to come by in some areas. The suggestion: Larry Niven (and some other Fantasy authors) have written stories in which magic is said to come from the land (or space or whatever) and the magicians only channel its power to their purpose. I would suggest, that there be a limit to the amount of each kind of magic that can be used in each hex for each turn. Maybe, there are four foundations, so say there are 50 magic points in each hex in each foundation in each turn. A magic wagon might take one point of Earth magic, whereas Fireflash might take 25 points of Fire magic, and Gloves of Strength might take 10 points of Water magic if they are used in combat. The magic points could be awarded to the highest persons on the turn report, so those who were there first get to use their magic items, and when there are too many magicians or magic items in a given hex, the magic doesn't work for the late-comers. This gives a BIG advantage to defending magicians, which I think is good for political stability. There might also be "blocking spells" which don't do anything other than use up all the remaining magic in a given foundation. With these spells, four mages could effectively stop all the magic items that entered a hex after them from working. This should keep the mages from getting too concentrated in any given area. One final plug for my faction-point table at the top of the message: by sort of forcing Magic factions to have the ability of TAXing or PRODUCEing in one hex, the players might tend to want to use that ability, so even a pure Magic faction might eventually try to claim a hex, which I think would make the game more interesting for all concerned. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To the observant (and patient who have read this far into my message): I am mailing this from my new Netcom account, you can mail me here, or at my old address (nims@cris.com). The Netcom account is sort of on a test-drive for now, so I'm not officially changing my address yet. The BlackFeather Mariners (546) M. Inman minman1@ix.netcom.com ---------------------------------------------------------- From: Bean <ATLANTIS@bluebean.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 15:29:03 +0000 Subject: Atl Rules: Keep them simple please Hello folks, This is a general reaction to many of the suggestions I've seen on this list over recent months. There have been numerous in-depth and analytical looks at the structure of the Atl world and how the interactions work within it. It's obvious that many folks spend a lot of time thinking over these problems. Most solutions suggested involve adding complexity to the rules such as faction point systems, tweaking the economy etc. Now it may well be that many of these changes would improve the realism, fairness or whatever of the game. But I'd like to make a counter plea to be considered in your thought processes. One of the strongest features of the Atl rules is their simplicity. This means non D&D-heads like myself can understand and enjoy the game without years of role playing experience and with a sensible weekly time outlay. The fun comes in the human interactions with our allies and other factions rather than in cleverly exploiting the game world framework - that's just an analytical exercise. Adding layers of complexity would actually reduce my fun. Newbies would take much longer to get going and there would probably be less scope for individual freedom within the scheme. I would suggest that the rules should do no more set the very basic workings necessary for the world to function. Then it's up to us as players to build on that framework, filling it in with our actions. So as you think through your design ideas please ask yourself the questions: 'Will this rule change truly enhance game play or am I just trying to fit Atlantis to my own model of how a PBM world should be?' 'Is the payback of this complication of the rules worth the extra player and games master workload?' 'Would this increase the players set of behaviour alternatives or in fact reduce it?' (PS I see no reason why the rules should be fair, anyway. If you think your faction type is unfairly disadvantaged then.... change it! I regard that as part of the game.) ---- Bean. ---------------------------------------------------------- From: tim.hruby@his.com (Tim Hruby) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 14:10:20 Subject: Shadow Sight, is it worth it? [Repost] To: atl-design@tango.rahul.net,atl-players@tango.rahul.net I sent this to the design list about a week ago, and it was met with deafening silence. I'll try this again, but hey, maybe there are just no Magic factions on the design list, so I'm crossposting to the players list as well (simply to see if there is anyone using the spell at all). I have a question/observation about the spell Shadow Sight. (If you don't want to see a spoiler, delete now. Message follows after many line feeds). None of my Magic friends seem to even want to use this spell, and I have a theory as to why. The spell permits you to travel ethereally to any region on atlantis and get data on the region type and the types of the surrounding hexes. You (probably) do not get full economic data, and you don't see any of the units in the region. This takes a full month CAST order. In my view, this information is almost useless, from an intelligence gathering standpoint, and certainly not worth the waste of a mage-month. Most of the mages I know seem to agree. I'm interested to hear if the are any mages that actually use this spell, or might consider using it. Speak up! We can't playtest spell balance without playtester comments. My proposal (assuming there is general agreement that this spell is not worth it) to correct the situation is simple: either make it an immediate CAST spell (useful for very basic global mapping by an organization of mages) or provide more information for the month-long version to make it useful as a reconnaisance spell (at least economic information and structures, and maybe some unit data). If providing unit data, this could also be limited by some means, for example [a] impose a -2 (?) OBS penalty on the viewing mage, or [b] only allow units with more than 10(?) men to be seen. Option [a] is probably more in keeping with the feel of the game and its general mechanics. Comments? Observations? ---------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 19:55:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Heinen <jeffh@ee.pdx.edu> Subject: Re: Shadow Sight, is it worth it? [Repost] I did not respond because all it wouldhave been wes "I like it." And thats about it. I would prefer to see it as an instant order tho. "Shadow sight" to me feels like a looking, just a general. Perhaps the indepth one could be created as another spell with another name. -Jeff -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=- Jeff Heinen The Computer Action Team The Un-named CAT jeffh@ee.pdx.edu cat@ee.pdx.edu http://www.ee.pdx.edu/~jeffh/ http://www.cat.pdx.edu/ ---------------------------------------------------------- From: Geoff Dunbar <atlantis@rahul.net> Subject: Atlantis 2.0: atl-design list Date: Mon, 21 Aug 95 21:40:07 -0700 This is a weekly posting for the atl-design mailing list. This list is meant for anyone interested in the rules and design of Atlantis 2.0. The moderator of the Atlantis 2.0 game is on this list, so your ideas could actually become reality! To send a message to everyone on the list, send email to: atl-design@tango.rahul.net To subscribe or un-subscribe to this list, mail to atlantis@rahul.net. Make sure you specify exactly what you want me to do, because a lot of mail goes to this address. ---------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Aug 95 13:59:16 -0700 From: "GDUNBAR.US.ORACLE.COM" <GDUNBAR@us.oracle.com> Subject: Re: Atl Rules: Keep them simple please --Boundary-151861-0-0 ] I would suggest that the rules should do no more set the very ]basic workings necessary for the world to function. Then it's up to ]us as players to build on that framework, filling it in with our ]actions. ] So as you think through your design ideas please ask yourself the ]questions: ] 'Will this rule change truly enhance game play or am I just ]trying to fit Atlantis to my own model of how a PBM world should be?' ] 'Is the payback of this complication of the rules worth the ]extra player and games master workload?' ] 'Would this increase the players set of behaviour ]alternatives or in fact reduce it?' Speaking for myself, I shy away from the more complex suggestions for exactly that reason. I especially believe that making orders for Atlantis should be easy. So, while some suggestions seem to be a bit complex, don't worry too much about them going in. Geoff --Boundary-151861-0-0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: 20 Aug 95 19:03:57 From:"Bean " <owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net> To: atl-design@tango.rahul.net Subject: Atl Rules: Keep them simple please Reply-to: atlantis@bluebean.demon.co.uk X-Real-Sender: ATLANTIS X-Orcl-Application: Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Hello folks, This is a general reaction to many of the suggestions I've seen on this list over recent months. There have been numerous in-depth and analytical looks at the structure of the Atl world and how the interactions work within it. It's obvious that many folks spend a lot of time thinking over these problems. Most solutions suggested involve adding complexity to the rules such as faction point systems, tweaking the economy etc. Now it may well be that many of these changes would improve the realism, fairness or whatever of the game. But I'd like to make a counter plea to be considered in your thought processes. One of the strongest features of the Atl rules is their simplicity. This means non D&D-heads like myself can understand and enjoy the game without years of role playing experience and with a sensible weekly time outlay. The fun comes in the human interactions with our allies and other factions rather than in cleverly exploiting the game world framework - that's just an analytical exercise. Adding layers of complexity would actually reduce my fun. Newbies would take much longer to get going and there would probably be less scope for individual freedom within the scheme. I would suggest that the rules should do no more set the very basic workings necessary for the world to function. Then it's up to us as players to build on that framework, filling it in with our actions. So as you think through your design ideas please ask yourself the questions: 'Will this rule change truly enhance game play or am I just trying to fit Atlantis to my own model of how a PBM world should be?' 'Is the payback of this complication of the rules worth the extra player and games master workload?' 'Would this increase the players set of behaviour alternatives or in fact reduce it?' (PS I see no reason why the rules should be fair, anyway. If you think your faction type is unfairly disadvantaged then.... change it! I regard that as part of the game.) ---- Bean. --Boundary-151861-0-0-- ---------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 Aug 95 13:56:07 -0700 From: "GDUNBAR.US.ORACLE.COM" <GDUNBAR@us.oracle.com> Subject: Re: Shadow Sight, is it worth it? [Repost] --Boundary-151830-0-0 OK, I haven't responded to anything on here in awhile. So time to dig in! It looks like what you're saying about shadow sight is that it doesn't do enough for a fairly high level mage to waste his time with. Here are my thoughts towards the next version of Atlantis: 1) If kept in its present form, it should be a low level spell, so you won't feel like you're wasting a high level mage on it. 2) A more powerful version would give more info on the region, such as economic and unit info. 3) A different more powerful version would be an instant spell. 4) A really powerful version would be an instant spell, and would give lots of info. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the feedback, Geoff --Boundary-151830-0-0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: 20 Aug 95 19:13:20 From:"Tim Hruby" <owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net> To: atl-design@tango.rahul.net Subject: Shadow Sight, is it worth it? [Repost] Reply-to: tim.hruby@his.com To: atl-design@tango.rahul.net,atl-players@tango.rahul.net I sent this to the design list about a week ago, and it was met with deafening silence. I'll try this again, but hey, maybe there are just no Magic factions on the design list, so I'm crossposting to the players list as well (simply to see if there is anyone using the spell at all). I have a question/observation about the spell Shadow Sight. (If you don't want to see a spoiler, delete now. Message follows after many line feeds). None of my Magic friends seem to even want to use this spell, and I have a theory as to why. The spell permits you to travel ethereally to any region on atlantis and get data on the region type and the types of the surrounding hexes. You (probably) do not get full economic data, and you don't see any of the units in the region. This takes a full month CAST order. In my view, this information is almost useless, from an intelligence gathering standpoint, and certainly not worth the waste of a mage-month. Most of the mages I know seem to agree. I'm interested to hear if the are any mages that actually use this spell, or might consider using it. Speak up! We can't playtest spell balance without playtester comments. My proposal (assuming there is general agreement that this spell is not worth it) to correct the situation is simple: either make it an immediate CAST spell (useful for very basic global mapping by an organization of mages) or provide more information for the month-long version to make it useful as a reconnaisance spell (at least economic information and structures, and maybe some unit data). If providing unit data, this could also be limited by some means, for example [a] impose a -2 (?) OBS penalty on the viewing mage, or [b] only allow units with more than 10(?) men to be seen. Option [a] is probably more in keeping with the feel of the game and its general mechanics. Comments? Observations? --Boundary-151830-0-0-- ---------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 14:09:29 PDT From: "GDUNBAR.US.ORACLE.COM" <GDUNBAR@us.oracle.com> Subject: Re: Atlantis Design Thoughts/Ramblings --Boundary-12425877-0-0 ]I hate to keep plugging my own idea, but I'd like a reaction from ]Geoff himself on my (yet again, here it is) faction point table: Here I am! ]Points Regions Mages ]---------------------- ] 1 1 1 ] 2 6 2 ] 3 18 3 ] 4 40 4 ] 5 75 4 ] ](I promise, this is the last time I'll post that) ] ]I fully agree that WAR factions have far too much advantage, and that ]large alliances basically must consist of one war one trade many magic ]factions within this system, but since the faction point system seems ]to be staying with Atlantis, I thought this would make a more interesting ]and better playing table than any of those proposed so far.... My current plan was: Points Regions Mages -------------------- 1 5 1 2 12 2 3 20 3 4 30 5 5 50 7 My thinking was that specialization of factions should be encouraged, but factions should be allowed a fair amount of latitude. Unless going for the absolute maximum, they should be allowed to spread things out a bit. I'm having a heck of a time thinking of a system that doesn't encourage alliances from gathering in a bunch of pure Magic factions. After all, in any system, a large alliance will control the most resources, and thus be able to afford the most mages. Maybe that's just the way Atlantis is. Geoff --Boundary-12425877-0-0 X-Orcl-Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: 19 Aug 1995 21:52:09 Sent: 19 Aug 1995 21:52:03 From:"M. Inman" <owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net> To: atl-design@tango.rahul.net Subject: Atlantis Design Thoughts/Ramblings Reply-to: owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net X-Orcl-Application: X-Sender: minman1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Orcl-Application: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Orcl-Application: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcl-Application: X-Mailer: <Windows Eudora Version 1.4.2b16> I hate to keep plugging my own idea, but I'd like a reaction from Geoff himself on my (yet again, here it is) faction point table: Points Regions Mages ---------------------- 1 1 1 2 6 2 3 18 3 4 40 4 5 75 4 (I promise, this is the last time I'll post that) I fully agree that WAR factions have far too much advantage, and that large alliances basically must consist of one war one trade many magic factions within this system, but since the faction point system seems to be staying with Atlantis, I thought this would make a more interesting and better playing table than any of those proposed so far.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding War being too powerful: If Atlantis is not to be a War game (which, right now, Atlantis 2 seems to me mostly a Xenophobic, scare your neighbors out of your land then build up and go kill them, kind of game) then War must lose some of its advantage over the Trade and Magic people. There seems to be consensus that TAX is a far more powerful order than anything available to Trade or Magic factions, it generates moderately large income with no time or movement penalties, and very little training investment. I would suggest offsetting this in several ways: 1. Make TAX income dependant on COM level, say 20 SIL per level. This way, wimpy little new recruits can only earn a measley 20 silver, while big brute COM3 guys can pull in 60 silver per man per month. This way, TAX income sort of tracks PRODUCE output, where more skilled men are more economically valuable. 2. Give Trade and Magic some kind of analogous command whereby they can make money every turn, while doing other things. For Trade, if they could Produce some kind of food, instead of eating Silver, this would at least give them a way to stay alive without having to run into the marketplaces all the time (I've noticed that movement is one of the most costly aspects of the game). 3. If units were allowed to execute multiple "month long" orders, at the cost of having their output reduced accordingly, this might allow the breadwinners to study while increasing their skill. TAX could be changed to a month long order as well, so a COM1 man who would otherwise earn 20 silver taxing, might earn 10 silver taxing while studying 15 days toward COM2. To get fancy, one might say: TAX TAX STUDY, thereby earning 2/3 of the month's normal TAX income and 1/3 of the normal STUDY time. This would also offset some of the cost of movement, since one could actually move somewhere AND do something in the same month. Of course, movement points would be reduced like everything else, but a man with a few magic wagons in a forest might possibly go to the hex next door, recruit some Vikings (since Sea-Elves are lousy Lumberjacks), and bring them back, all in one turn. UNIT 1840 (has 3 magic wagons, therefore 4 MPs) MOVE NE (through forest, thus requires 2 MPs, or 15 days) GIVE NEW 3 700 SIL GIVE NEW 3 2 "Magic Wagon" FORM 3 (15 days were already gone when this happened, so they have 1/2 MPs) NAME UNIT "New Jacks" BUY 10 VIK MOVE SW END MOVE SW (this requires the remaining 15 days) Orders like MOVE have fixed time that they require, whereas TAX or STUDY are flexible, so when a UNIT's orders are processed, the fixed time orders would be taken out first, then the flexible orders would evenly divide whatever time is left over. I don't know if Geoff wants to get into the coding hassle for this, but I think it would go a long way toward addressing the problem that some things (like MOVEing) just take way too much game time. 4. Magic faction might develop some Trade-Like spells that they can cast to earn money from the populace. Entertaining with fireworks is one thing, but if I were a peasant, I'd be more than willing to give Merlin several man-months maintenance of Silver or food if he'd do something useful, like enchant the village (driving away flies, bringing cool breezes, etc. etc.) Hey, it might even (temporarily) raise the local economy a notch or two. This money for Merlin might come out of the TAX base, or if the tax base were increased by the spell, Merlin might just get the excess.... Finally, in defense of TAX, if it weren't for TAX, I'd be pretty well bored with Atlantis by now. Quick, easy income gives one the ability to realistically dream about what might be, hey, just recruit 10 new men, tax for 500 SILver, recruit 10 more, tax for 1000 SILver, then start buying plate armor for the leaders..... Watching the initial 5000 silver slowly dwindle, hoping to be able to build up to a break-even point before going broke doesn't sound like fun. Right now, that's what the pure Trade and Magic factions are doing, unless they have a War partner. That's why I'm War/Trade. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding the 1 War 1 Trade 327 Magic faction alliance problem: Really, I don't think this is too much of a problem, if the mages are kept spread out somehow. If a pure War faction actually has 75 Magic allies, then let him have 4 mages defending each hex, but pleeeeease don't let all 300 mages gang up in one spot. I met a consortium of newbies near Yakleks, and they essentially walked in and kicked me out of a hex where I had been merrily taxing and recruiting away for 6 months. Yeah, so they were bigger than me, and they wanted the TAX income, and as they stated, they were willing to kill me to get it, and they did so. If I had had another 3 months of TAX income, I could have gotten my lumberjacks and carpenters on-line and would have been making more selling wagons in Tolsta than I was TAXing the forest, but due to this conflict of interest, I got slaughtered. If I had bowed down to them right away, it would have taken me over a year to earn enough WORKing to re-train my existing COMbat troops as producers, I'd rather die, and so I did. I guess the point to that story is that a big alliance brought its full force against my respectable (20 COM2 troops, TAC2 leader) forest dwelling defense force and wiped me clean off the map. If these mega- alliances of magic factions are allowed to concentrate their mages (with 10 attacks per round, COM27 effective fighting ability, cloak of invisibility +23 defense against missile attack, etc. etc. ad nauseum) all into one region, it's going to be demoralizing to the rest of the players who essentially can't do anything against these guys. Even a well established faction, who has 200 COM3 troops per hex in three adjacent hexes (in other words, it's all the land can do just to feed these guys) would not be able to resist the onslaught of 50 of these super-combat mages. And the mages can move around freely, since they only require 20 silver per man maintenance, whereas moving a 600 man army requires some 6000 silver of income per turn, which can be pretty hard to come by in some areas. The suggestion: Larry Niven (and some other Fantasy authors) have written stories in which magic is said to come from the land (or space or whatever) and the magicians only channel its power to their purpose. I would suggest, that there be a limit to the amount of each kind of magic that can be used in each hex for each turn. Maybe, there are four foundations, so say there are 50 magic points in each hex in each foundation in each turn. A magic wagon might take one point of Earth magic, whereas Fireflash might take 25 points of Fire magic, and Gloves of Strength might take 10 points of Water magic if they are used in combat. The magic points could be awarded to the highest persons on the turn report, so those who were there first get to use their magic items, and when there are too many magicians or magic items in a given hex, the magic doesn't work for the late-comers. This gives a BIG advantage to defending magicians, which I think is good for political stability. There might also be "blocking spells" which don't do anything other than use up all the remaining magic in a given foundation. With these spells, four mages could effectively stop all the magic items that entered a hex after them from working. This should keep the mages from getting too concentrated in any given area. One final plug for my faction-point table at the top of the message: by sort of forcing Magic factions to have the ability of TAXing or PRODUCEing in one hex, the players might tend to want to use that ability, so even a pure Magic faction might eventually try to claim a hex, which I think would make the game more interesting for all concerned. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To the observant (and patient who have read this far into my message): I am mailing this from my new Netcom account, you can mail me here, or at my old address (nims@cris.com). The Netcom account is sort of on a test-drive for now, so I'm not officially changing my address yet. The BlackFeather Mariners (546) M. Inman minman1@ix.netcom.com --Boundary-12425877-0-0-- ---------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 14:24:00 PDT From: "GDUNBAR.US.ORACLE.COM" <GDUNBAR@us.oracle.com> Subject: Re: Atlantis Design Thoughts/Ramblings --Boundary-12426300-0-0 ]Regarding War being too powerful: ] ]If Atlantis is not to be a War game (which, right now, Atlantis 2 seems ]to me mostly a Xenophobic, scare your neighbors out of your land then ]build up and go kill them, kind of game) then War must lose some of its ]advantage over the Trade and Magic people. ] ]There seems to be consensus that TAX is a far more powerful order than ]anything available to Trade or Magic factions, it generates moderately ]large income with no time or movement penalties, and very little training ]investment. I would suggest offsetting this in several ways: ] ]1. Make TAX income dependant on COM level, say 20 SIL per level. This ]way, wimpy little new recruits can only earn a measley 20 silver, while ]big brute COM3 guys can pull in 60 silver per man per month. This way, ]TAX income sort of tracks PRODUCE output, where more skilled men are more ]economically valuable. This is only a factor early in the game. War factions generally over-tax regions anyways. ]2. Give Trade and Magic some kind of analogous command whereby they can ]make money every turn, while doing other things. For Trade, if they ]could Produce some kind of food, instead of eating Silver, this would ]at least give them a way to stay alive without having to run into the ]marketplaces all the time (I've noticed that movement is one of the most ]costly aspects of the game). For Trade, things will change towards this angle. I'll try to make it so that Trade is at least on the same order of profit as War. ]3. If units were allowed to execute multiple "month long" orders, at the ]cost of having their output reduced accordingly, this might allow the ]breadwinners to study while increasing their skill. TAX could be changed ]to a month long order as well, so a COM1 man who would otherwise earn ]20 silver taxing, might earn 10 silver taxing while studying 15 days ]toward COM2. To get fancy, one might say: TAX TAX STUDY, thereby ]earning 2/3 of the month's normal TAX income and 1/3 of the normal STUDY ]time. This would also offset some of the cost of movement, since one ]could actually move somewhere AND do something in the same month. Of ]course, movement points would be reduced like everything else, but a ]man with a few magic wagons in a forest might possibly go to the ]hex next door, recruit some Vikings (since Sea-Elves are lousy ]Lumberjacks), and bring them back, all in one turn. ] ]UNIT 1840 (has 3 magic wagons, therefore 4 MPs) ]MOVE NE (through forest, thus requires 2 MPs, or 15 days) ]GIVE NEW 3 700 SIL ]GIVE NEW 3 2 "Magic Wagon" ]FORM 3 (15 days were already gone when this happened, so they have 1/2 MPs) ]NAME UNIT "New Jacks" ]BUY 10 VIK ]MOVE SW ]END ]MOVE SW (this requires the remaining 15 days) ] ]Orders like MOVE have fixed time that they require, whereas TAX or STUDY ]are flexible, so when a UNIT's orders are processed, the fixed time orders ]would be taken out first, then the flexible orders would evenly divide ]whatever time is left over. I don't know if Geoff wants to get into the ]coding hassle for this, but I think it would go a long way toward ]addressing the problem that some things (like MOVEing) just take way too ]much game time. This will not happen. It's not so much the programming, as the increased difficulty of play. Atlantis has a very simple system in this regard: at the beginning of the turn, you do things like GIVE and ATTACK. You can see everyone you can GIVE to, or ATTACK, making it pretty easy to do all this. Then, you get to execute 1 month-long order. After this, the world is in a new state, and you get back a report. Once you allow more than one major order per month, you open up a whole can of worms. For example, can you MOVE, then GIVE, then MOVE again? You have to break the whole turn down into a bunch of "mini-turns". Only on the first "mini-turn" will you have the complete region information. An example of the "mini-turn" system is Olympia. While this is unquestionably a very good game, there are some things that Atlantis is much better at than Olympia. You can only control a few units in Olympia; in Atlantis, you can write orders for hundreds in a reasonable amount of time. Olympia also has all sorts of nasty coordination issues that simply aren't present in Atlantis. So, while the idea presented can make for an excellent game, that game is not Atlantis. ]4. Magic faction might develop some Trade-Like spells that they can ]cast to earn money from the populace. Entertaining with fireworks is ]one thing, but if I were a peasant, I'd be more than willing to give ]Merlin several man-months maintenance of Silver or food if he'd do ]something useful, like enchant the village (driving away flies, bringing ]cool breezes, etc. etc.) Hey, it might even (temporarily) raise the ]local economy a notch or two. This money for Merlin might come out of ]the TAX base, or if the tax base were increased by the spell, Merlin ]might just get the excess.... Good idea. ]Finally, in defense of TAX, if it weren't for TAX, I'd be pretty well ]bored with Atlantis by now. Quick, easy income gives one the ability ]to realistically dream about what might be, hey, just recruit 10 new ]men, tax for 500 SILver, recruit 10 more, tax for 1000 SILver, then ]start buying plate armor for the leaders..... ]Watching the initial 5000 silver slowly dwindle, hoping to be able to ]build up to a break-even point before going broke doesn't sound like ]fun. Right now, that's what the pure Trade and Magic factions are ]doing, unless they have a War partner. That's why I'm War/Trade. Trade will have much more potential in the next version. Magic will always be an adventure. :) Geoff --Boundary-12426300-0-0 X-Orcl-Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: 19 Aug 1995 21:52:09 Sent: 19 Aug 1995 21:52:03 From:"M. Inman" <owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net> To: atl-design@tango.rahul.net Subject: Atlantis Design Thoughts/Ramblings Reply-to: owner-atl-design@tango.rahul.net X-Orcl-Application: X-Sender: minman1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Orcl-Application: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Orcl-Application: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Orcl-Application: X-Mailer: <Windows Eudora Version 1.4.2b16> I hate to keep plugging my own idea, but I'd like a reaction from Geoff himself on my (yet again, here it is) faction point table: Points Regions Mages ---------------------- 1 1 1 2 6 2 3 18 3 4 40 4 5 75 4 (I promise, this is the last time I'll post that) I fully agree that WAR factions have far too much advantage, and that large alliances basically must consist of one war one trade many magic factions within this system, but since the faction point system seems to be staying with Atlantis, I thought this would make a more interesting and better playing table than any of those proposed so far.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding War being too powerful: If Atlantis is not to be a War game (which, right now, Atlantis 2 seems to me mostly a Xenophobic, scare your neighbors out of your land then build up and go kill them, kind of game) then War must lose some of its advantage over the Trade and Magic people. There seems to be consensus that TAX is a far more powerful order than anything available to Trade or Magic factions, it generates moderately large income with no time or movement penalties, and very little training investment. I would suggest offsetting this in several ways: 1. Make TAX income dependant on COM level, say 20 SIL per level. This way, wimpy little new recruits can only earn a measley 20 silver, while big brute COM3 guys can pull in 60 silver per man per month. This way, TAX income sort of tracks PRODUCE output, where more skilled men are more economically valuable. 2. Give Trade and Magic some kind of analogous command whereby they can make money every turn, while doing other things. For Trade, if they could Produce some kind of food, instead of eating Silver, this would at least give them a way to stay alive without having to run into the marketplaces all the time (I've noticed that movement is one of the most costly aspects of the game). 3. If units were allowed to execute multiple "month long" orders, at the cost of having their output reduced accordingly, this might allow the breadwinners to study while increasing their skill. TAX could be changed to a month long order as well, so a COM1 man who would otherwise earn 20 silver taxing, might earn 10 silver taxing while studying 15 days toward COM2. To get fancy, one might say: TAX TAX STUDY, thereby earning 2/3 of the month's normal TAX income and 1/3 of the normal STUDY time. This would also offset some of the cost of movement, since one could actually move somewhere AND do something in the same month. Of course, movement points would be reduced like everything else, but a man with a few magic wagons in a forest might possibly go to the hex next door, recruit some Vikings (since Sea-Elves are lousy Lumberjacks), and bring them back, all in one turn. UNIT 1840 (has 3 magic wagons, therefore 4 MPs) MOVE NE (through forest, thus requires 2 MPs, or 15 days) GIVE NEW 3 700 SIL GIVE NEW 3 2 "Magic Wagon" FORM 3 (15 days were already gone when this happened, so they have 1/2 MPs) NAME UNIT "New Jacks" BUY 10 VIK MOVE SW END MOVE SW (this requires the remaining 15 days) Orders like MOVE have fixed time that they require, whereas TAX or STUDY are flexible, so when a UNIT's orders are processed, the fixed time orders would be taken out first, then the flexible orders would evenly divide whatever time is left over. I don't know if Geoff wants to get into the coding hassle for this, but I think it would go a long way toward addressing the problem that some things (like MOVEing) just take way too much game time. 4. Magic faction might develop some Trade-Like spells that they can cast to earn money from the populace. Entertaining with fireworks is one thing, but if I were a peasant, I'd be more than willing to give Merlin several man-months maintenance of Silver or food if he'd do something useful, like enchant the village (driving away flies, bringing cool breezes, etc. etc.) Hey, it might even (temporarily) raise the local economy a notch or two. This money for Merlin might come out of the TAX base, or if the tax base were increased by the spell, Merlin might just get the excess.... Finally, in defense of TAX, if it weren't for TAX, I'd be pretty well bored with Atlantis by now. Quick, easy income gives one the ability to realistically dream about what might be, hey, just recruit 10 new men, tax for 500 SILver, recruit 10 more, tax for 1000 SILver, then start buying plate armor for the leaders..... Watching the initial 5000 silver slowly dwindle, hoping to be able to build up to a break-even point before going broke doesn't sound like fun. Right now, that's what the pure Trade and Magic factions are doing, unless they have a War partner. That's why I'm War/Trade. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding the 1 War 1 Trade 327 Magic faction alliance problem: Really, I don't think this is too much of a problem, if the mages are kept spread out somehow. If a pure War faction actually has 75 Magic allies, then let him have 4 mages defending each hex, but pleeeeease don't let all 300 mages gang up in one spot. I met a consortium of newbies near Yakleks, and they essentially walked in and kicked me out of a hex where I had been merrily taxing and recruiting away for 6 months. Yeah, so they were bigger than me, and they wanted the TAX income, and as they stated, they were willing to kill me to get it, and they did so. If I had had another 3 months of TAX income, I could have gotten my lumberjacks and carpenters on-line and would have been making more selling wagons in Tolsta than I was TAXing the forest, but due to this conflict of interest, I got slaughtered. If I had bowed down to them right away, it would have taken me over a year to earn enough WORKing to re-train my existing COMbat troops as producers, I'd rather die, and so I did. I guess the point to that story is that a big alliance brought its full force against my respectable (20 COM2 troops, TAC2 leader) forest dwelling defense force and wiped me clean off the map. If these mega- alliances of magic factions are allowed to concentrate their mages (with 10 attacks per round, COM27 effective fighting ability, cloak of invisibility +23 defense against missile attack, etc. etc. ad nauseum) all into one region, it's going to be demoralizing to the rest of the players who essentially can't do anything against these guys. Even a well established faction, who has 200 COM3 troops per hex in three adjacent hexes (in other words, it's all the land can do just to feed these guys) would not be able to resist the onslaught of 50 of these super-combat mages. And the mages can move around freely, since they only require 20 silver per man maintenance, whereas moving a 600 man army requires some 6000 silver of income per turn, which can be pretty hard to come by in some areas. The suggestion: Larry Niven (and some other Fantasy authors) have written stories in which magic is said to come from the land (or space or whatever) and the magicians only channel its power to their purpose. I would suggest, that there be a limit to the amount of each kind of magic that can be used in each hex for each turn. Maybe, there are four foundations, so say there are 50 magic points in each hex in each foundation in each turn. A magic wagon might take one point of Earth magic, whereas Fireflash might take 25 points of Fire magic, and Gloves of Strength might take 10 points of Water magic if they are used in combat. The magic points could be awarded to the highest persons on the turn report, so those who were there first get to use their magic items, and when there are too many magicians or magic items in a given hex, the magic doesn't work for the late-comers. This gives a BIG advantage to defending magicians, which I think is good for political stability. There might also be "blocking spells" which don't do anything other than use up all the remaining magic in a given foundation. With these spells, four mages could effectively stop all the magic items that entered a hex after them from working. This should keep the mages from getting too concentrated in any given area. One final plug for my faction-point table at the top of the message: by sort of forcing Magic factions to have the ability of TAXing or PRODUCEing in one hex, the players might tend to want to use that ability, so even a pure Magic faction might eventually try to claim a hex, which I think would make the game more interesting for all concerned. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To the observant (and patient who have read this far into my message): I am mailing this from my new Netcom account, you can mail me here, or at my old address (nims@cris.com). The Netcom account is sort of on a test-drive for now, so I'm not officially changing my address yet. The BlackFeather Mariners (546) M. Inman minman1@ix.netcom.com --Boundary-12426300-0-0-- Up