ATLANTISv2 atl-design-digest #46

From: csd@microplex.com (Christian Daudt)

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 00:00:00 +0000

Errors to csd@microplex.com
Now there should be a digest whenever (a) there are 10 emails
or (b) whenever there is an email waiting for more than 48 hours
for a digest to be completed.
So don't get worried if the digest has only 1 or 2 emails, that
just means the list has been slow.
(I hope it works)
If you want previous versions, they are available via WWW at
http://www.microplex.com/~csd/atlantisv2/
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From: tim.hruby@his.com
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 95 10:35:03
Subject: Atl: Economic Changes

To get some discussion going here again:

Geoff,

Are we likely to see any of the proposed economic system changes implemented in
the playtest?  (After all, shouldn't we playtest them before you decide to
implement them wholesale in Atl 3?)

As a full Trade faction, I'm speaking mainly of the proposed town/city
growth/decline function from trading in the NPC markets, since this would
make me more useful in the eyes of my War allies.  But the food ideas, etc.,
should also be playtested, to find out their real impact.

I'd also like to see some price fluctuation (rather than quantity) based on
supply and demand.  For now, for instance, no one is ever going to buy
certain things from cites (i.e. definitely not fish and furs), since they
aren't useful, and cost more than they can sold for at other cities  (it's
unlikely that useful things will be bought at the high prices as well, but
the possibility exists, given their usefulness).  Given the current economic
system, there's no potential profit in player caravans from one city to another
(which is probably something that should exist in an open-ended game that
promotes activites besides war and war-preparation.)  If it were
possible to buy low, move, and sell high, it would provide something to do
besides constantly preparing for war (and if it resulted in long-term
economic growth for the areas, War factions would have an interest in
_promoting and protecting_ foreign traders, rather than the current
incentive to keep out everyone who is not an ally.)

And, of course, there's the ever popular hue and cry for some kind of
auction-like bidding system.

Just wanting to find out what you are working on....

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From: SARIKAKIS ANDREAS <andrew@ergasya.tuc.gr>
Subject: Re: Atl: Economic Changes
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 95 18:32:14 WETDST

> I'd also like to see some price fluctuation (rather than quantity) based on
> supply and demand.  For now, for instance, no one is ever going to buy
> certain things from cites (i.e. definitely not fish and furs), since they
> aren't useful, and cost more than they can sold for at other cities  (it's
> unlikely that useful things will be bought at the high prices as well, but
> the possibility exists, given their usefulness).  Given the current economic
> system, there's no potential profit in player caravans from one city to another
> (which is probably something that should exist in an open-ended game that
> promotes activites besides war and war-preparation.)  If it were
> possible to buy low, move, and sell high, it would provide something to do
> besides constantly preparing for war (and if it resulted in long-term
> economic growth for the areas, War factions would have an interest in
> _promoting and protecting_ foreign traders, rather than the current
> incentive to keep out everyone who is not an ally.)
>
  I disagree to this.I have certain examples about this in my area.
  Of course the "unuseful" items like furs or fish will never have buyers.
  I think that buy low and sell high is an option (although it is MUCH more
  profitable to produce yourself) but I think that if many items were given in
  such low prices in order to be sold high all war factions would buy from
  there and trade factions would be forced to sell in very low prices.

However I think the only purpose of Atlantis is preparing for war.
  The only products that are actually produced are weapons armor and some
  horses to be used exclusively in war.

Ships are too expensive to be used in cargo transfers and will be
  probably only used by war factions.

Also most of the races are specialised in war.I believe that atlantis is
  finally a war game.

> And, of course, there's the ever popular hue and cry for some kind of
> auction-like bidding system.
>
  A bidding system or some sort of a player buy-sell exchange (like Olympia's
  which is very good I think) would be of use too.

Geoff the final word is yours.

Andrew
>
> Just wanting to find out what you are working on....
>
>
>

--
----------------------------------------------------------
Subject: War and Trade game
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 15:21:06 -0700
From: Anson Winsor <apwinsor@magic.CS.UNLV.EDU>

>> I'd also like to see some price fluctuation (rather than quantity) based on
>> supply and demand.
Also, the demand should depend on how many people are in the city and
how fast the city is growing. The more people, the higher the demand
should rise.

For trade to make a living other than as a War Vassle, trade needs to
have a steady supply of income also.

>>For now, for instance, no one is ever going to buy
>> certain things from cites (i.e. definitely not fish and furs), since they
>> aren't useful, and cost more than they can sold for at other cities  (it's
>> unlikely that useful things will be bought at the high prices as well, but
>> the possibility exists, given their usefulness).
If the things are never to be useful in the game, then perhaps they should
be taken off the list of things that are available.
Make more useful things and have more of them and get rid of useless ones.
Only Geoff will know what might ever be useful though

>> Given the current economic
>> system, there's no potential profit in player caravans from one city to anothe
>> (which is probably something that should exist in an open-ended game that
>> promotes activites besides war and war-preparation.)  If it were
>> possible to buy low, move, and sell high, it would provide something to do
>> besides constantly preparing for war (and if it resulted in long-term
>> economic growth for the areas, War factions would have an interest in
>> _promoting and protecting_ foreign traders, rather than the current
>> incentive to keep out everyone who is not an ally.)
As a role-playing game, we need to make if profitable to set up and run
trade caravans. Geoff has said the new game will make it better for
Trade to exist and prospher.

>
>  I disagree to this.I have certain examples about this in my area.
>  Of course the "unuseful" items like furs or fish will never have buyers.
>  I think that buy low and sell high is an option (although it is MUCH more
>  profitable to produce yourself) but I think that if many items were given in
>  such low prices in order to be sold high all war factions would buy from
>  there and trade factions would be forced to sell in very low prices.
For sure, producing the goods yourself will make you more profit.
As it should. But should buying and selling be limited to only Trade?

>
>  However I think the only purpose of Atlantis is preparing for war.
>  The only products that are actually produced are weapons armor and some
>  horses to be used exclusively in war.
In this current version of the game, I most definately have to agree with
you. It is a WAR GAME and both trade and Magic is geared to be supporters
of the war effort.

But there are all kinds of players out there that think war has a place
in a game and is not the sole purpose of a game.
I have tried to be a pure trade and have no steady income unless a war
faction gives it to me.

I tried to produce things and sell them only to see the demand for the
item dry up and not be able to make silver any more.

War has its taxes and they don't dimish unless the land is pillaged.

Hardly an even type of arrangement, but does exist that way in this game.

>
> Ships are too expensive to be used in cargo transfers and will be
>  probably only used by war factions.
Actually, ships only need a bit of time to build. Expensive if you
need to buy them, not so bad to produce them yourself.
But there is big need for ships. What are you going to ship where?

And once you do, the market will dry up.
The only reliable source of income is taxes.
Therefore the only real profit is being a faction that gets taxes.

>
>  Also most of the races are specialised in war.I believe that atlantis is
>  finally a war game.
Oh, yes! That is what it is!
But does it have to stay that way!!???

>
>> And, of course, there's the ever popular hue and cry for some kind of
>> auction-like bidding system.
>>
>  A bidding system or some sort of a player buy-sell exchange (like Olympia's
>  which is very good I think) would be of use too.
Sure, this would be good.

Also a point to make about produce and tax.

Turn1:
You tax and you can support your troops that turn. Income here!
You produce and you wait. No income!

Turt 2:
You tax and you can buy stuff this turn.
You produce and you sell stuff produced last turn, can support your units.
    Trade cannot buy anything yet!

Turn 3:
You keep taxing getting even more silver.
You finally can buy something using proceeds from production in turn 1.

Geoff, *please* put the SELL order coming before the BUY order.
At least you would be able to sell what you produced last turn
and try to buy somehting. Waiting only 1 turn instead of 2 turns.

>
>  Geoff the final word is yours.
Geoff has good words.