ATLANTISv2 atl-design-digest #52

From: csd@microplex.com (Christian Daudt)

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:00:00 +0000

Errors to csd@microplex.com
Now there should be a digest whenever (a) there are 10 emails
or (b) whenever there is an email waiting for more than 48 hours
for a digest to be completed.
So don't get worried if the digest has only 1 or 2 emails, that
just means the list has been slow.
(I hope it works)
If you want previous versions, they are available via WWW at
http://www.microplex.com/~csd/atlantisv2/
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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 14:21:09 -0700
From: ward@jeeves.ucsd.edu
Subject: Atl: Trade suggestions

I have a suggestion that I think would improve the interactions of
players with the city and town markets.  It involves an additional optional
parameter to be added to the BUY and SELL orders and would let players
compete for the purchase of items.
  For example, a town has a demand of 25 wood and the price is $36.  If a
player submits a buy order: BUY 10 WOO 37 where 37 is the offered price,
and no higher offers are made, then a sale is made to that player instead
of the town.  If the demand of the town is less than what is offered for
sale then a BUY 10 WOO 10 might get a player some wood at a bargain price.

To protect the seller, an additional minimum price parameter could be
added to SELL so that the order is: SELL 10 WOO 20 where 20 is the minimum
acceptable price.
  These changes would keep more of the produced items in the game, open
additional markets for items (including magic items and advanced items not
currently bought by towns), and institute an auction.  It would also
simplify sales that are currently made with GIVE orders.
  Prices for items could then be advertised in unit descriptions:

- Trader X (8325), nomad, 10 crossbows; Sell 10 XBO 100.

The SELL 10 XBO 100 order could be placed every turn and when a buyer
submitted a BUY 10 XBO 100 order the transaction would be automatic.

Let me know what you think.

Ward - Severe Trade (164)

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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 14:33:45 -0700
From: ward@jeeves.ucsd.edu
Subject: Atl: Trade suggestions

Since banking could be considered an integral part of trade activities, I
think that pure trade factions should be able to use an UNCLAIM order.
Trade factions already need to transport items to towns for sale, which I'm
not complaining about.  But then we need to transport silver back to
producing units.  An UNCLAIM order would really be beneficial for
supporting producers.  It should require banking skill (maybe level 3).  It
would also be another service that trade factions could offer to the other
factions.  Needing to have a banker along on explorations is not so
realistic ... maybe we should call the skill something else.

Let me know what you think.

Ward - Severe Trade (164)

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Subject: Atl: Trade suggestions
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 1995 23:02:13 -0700
From: Anson Winsor <apwinsor@magic.CS.UNLV.EDU>

This is a very good idea.

True, we should not need a banker to claim money. That could stay the
same as currently we have it.

But we should need a banker to unclaim money. A skill 3 or higher
is ok. Perhaps at level 3 there is a 10% transaction fee and at
level 5 there is a 5% fee. Or something like this.

Perhaps a PURE trade faction, at level 5, can even unclaim silver
for other factions. For an additional fee , of course. Another
reason to have a pure trade faction around.

Of course, trade is what does these things in the real world too.

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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 14:33:45 -0700
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To: atl-design@tango.rahul.net
From: ward@jeeves.ucsd.edu
Subject: Atl: Trade suggestions

Let me know what you think.

Ward - Severe Trade (164)

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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 08:44:10 -0500
From: jobollin@iumsc4.chem.indiana.edu (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re:  Atl: Trade suggestions

>  Since banking could be considered an integral part of trade activities, I
>think that pure trade factions should be able to use an UNCLAIM order.
>Trade factions already need to transport items to towns for sale, which I'm
>not complaining about.  But then we need to transport silver back to
>producing units.  An UNCLAIM order would really be beneficial for
>supporting producers.  It should require banking skill (maybe level 3).  It
>would also be another service that trade factions could offer to the other
>factions.  Needing to have a banker along on explorations is not so
>realistic ... maybe we should call the skill something else.

The ability to transfer money over indefinite distances in short times would
be EXTREMELY powerful.  I do not think it is appropriate.  Bringing money
back along a caravan route is realistic, if inconvenient.  However, consider
the application of an UNCLAIM order to a war faction.  Given sufficient
income from ANY collection of regions, a war faction could support enormous
armies _anywhere_, without any logistical problems to speak of.

Making the ability require a certain skill level is not a sufficient
restriction to this kind of ability.  Indeed, I do not see any sufficient
restrictions that do not involve modifying the CLAIM order in ways that
I do not favor.

John Bollinger
Melvin's Marauders (105)
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 11:09:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: ThorC@UH.EDU (Thor Christensen)
Subject: Re: Atl: Trade suggestions

>This is a very good idea.
>
>True, we should not need a banker to claim money. That could stay the
>same as currently we have it.
>
>But we should need a banker to unclaim money. A skill 3 or higher
>is ok. Perhaps at level 3 there is a 10% transaction fee and at
>level 5 there is a 5% fee. Or something like this.
>
>Perhaps a PURE trade faction, at level 5, can even unclaim silver
>for other factions. For an additional fee , of course. Another
>reason to have a pure trade faction around.
>
>Of course, trade is what does these things in the real world too.
>

I too like this.  Perhaps another restriction could be the number of
"banker" units you could have - similar to mages.

This would havbe the effect of centralizing your banking operations.

Banking units would be placed within the wealthiest and safest regions.

Units could carry cash to them and convert it to unclaimed at the discount
rates mentioned above.

A true merchant house class could develop and be a real power in the
game, rather than the production milk cow that they are currently for
the war factions.

Unleash the forces of capitalism!

Thor Christensen

thorc@uh.edu
phone      (713) 743-3975
fax:          (713) 743-3978

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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 22:18:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Lazarus <llong@io.com>
Subject: Re:  Atl: Trade suggestions

Transferring silver this way would be no more powerful that being able to
have a mage transfer silver and troops via the portal spell.
Reserve this for a high level banker and the game is better balanced.

On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, John Bollinger wrote:

>
> >  Since banking could be considered an integral part of trade activities, I
> >think that pure trade factions should be able to use an UNCLAIM order.
> >Trade factions already need to transport items to towns for sale, which I'm
> >not complaining about.  But then we need to transport silver back to
> >producing units.  An UNCLAIM order would really be beneficial for
> >supporting producers.  It should require banking skill (maybe level 3).  It
> >would also be another service that trade factions could offer to the other
> >factions.  Needing to have a banker along on explorations is not so
> >realistic ... maybe we should call the skill something else.
>
> The ability to transfer money over indefinite distances in short times would
> be EXTREMELY powerful.  I do not think it is appropriate.  Bringing money
> back along a caravan route is realistic, if inconvenient.  However, consider
> the application of an UNCLAIM order to a war faction.  Given sufficient
> income from ANY collection of regions, a war faction could support enormous
> armies _anywhere_, without any logistical problems to speak of.
>
> Making the ability require a certain skill level is not a sufficient
> restriction to this kind of ability.  Indeed, I do not see any sufficient
> restrictions that do not involve modifying the CLAIM order in ways that
> I do not favor.
>
>
> John Bollinger
> Melvin's Marauders (105)
>
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 09:21:51 -0500
From: jobollin@iumsc4.chem.indiana.edu (John Bollinger)
Subject: Re:  Atl: Trade suggestions

With regard to a potential UNCLAIM order, llong@io.com wrote:
>Transferring silver this way would be no more powerful that being able to
>have a mage transfer silver and troops via the portal spell.
>Reserve this for a high level banker and the game is better balanced.

Note: some people object to spell spoilers, for which the above qualifies.

I presume that by better balanced you mean that non-magic factions
would have an ability similar to an ability of (some) magic factions.
That is not necessarilly balance.  Indeed, I claim that the entire
faction system is useless if all faction types are to be able to do
all the same things, even if they must use different methods.  In this
context, balance means that different faction types are (potentially, at
least) equally powerful.  I think that the balance in the current game
is somewhat off, but not too bad.

I also disagree that an UNCLAIM order would be comparable in power to the
abilities of some mages, but if it were then there would be no problem
in the first place.  If you wish to transport your gold quickly, then
find or train someone to Portal Jump you.

The remainder of this is devoted to a comparison of the Portal Spell and
an UNCLAIM order.  Those who do not want (more) spell spoilers should read
no further.

A mage must spend an entire turn to transport units via the Portal Jump
spell.  He must have a Portal, and a friendly unit in the target region
must also have a Portal.  The total weight of the items to be transferred
is restricted (although this doesn't affect silver, since it's weightless).
A mage may only cast one Portal Jump per turn.  Even a pure magic faction
is limited to 5 mages altogether, and cross-breed factions have fewer.

These restrictions on Portal Jump are considerable.  Granted, Portal Jump
is still a powerful spell, but if a faction is willing to devote valuable
mages to doing nothing but Portal Jumping people and their equipment around,
then I say let them do it.

An UNCLAIM order, however, would be very different.  Even if only a Banker
could execute it, after it was done, any number of units of that faction,
anywhere, could access the money.  Unlike a mage considering Portal Jumping,
a Banker would have nothing substantially better to do, unless you want to
build up a whole hierarchy of abilities for this type of unit.  The proposal
did not include any limit on the number of Bankers a faction could possess.
Also, putting money in the unclaimed account makes it inaccessible to
thieves or bandits -- a nice-sounding ability, but totally out of sunc with
the way everything else in the game works.  You _should_ have to worry about
getting money back from the market to your producers.

If you are still not convinced, then I suggest that you post a detailed
proposal for how you think such an UNCLAIM order should work.  Include any
and all effects and restrictions.  I will reserve further comment until I
see such.

John Bollinger
Melvin's Marauders (105)
----------------------------------------------------------
From: Josh_Higham@nmh.northfield.ma.us (Josh Higham)
Subject: Trade Suggestions
Date: 11 Oct 1995 03:02:17 GMT

Maybe we could do something that would link the unclaimed silver with a
specific building.  This way it would be relatively safe, but it couldn't be
transferred without time and risk.

Have a banker DEPOSIT silve - which would increase that building's balance of
silver.

The banker could then also WITHDRAW silver.
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