AG digest #1 From: Brett Mason <apeiros@teleport.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:00:00 +0000 Monday, 17 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 001 ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:54:55 -0500 Subject: Re: GUILD-L PL and wpn skill lvl ***** Alrek@aol.com wrote: > Really, > Well, not quite. My elf (Duncan) with a 48 cunning still has 30 weapon skill > points in his punch dagger, and has had those 30 WSP for close to 3 years > now. While my Lizardman (Korenth Salke) with a 30 cunning has a level 8 > longsword, and then switched to the Heavy Warhammer, which he's now level 6 > in (28WSP). Then there is Asa, to which all is defined by <g> Level 13 and > going... Ya, but most elves I know have around that high of a level, even with lower cunning and concentrating on spells instead of combat. Also I know straight fighters at higher power levels then Duncan with less wpn skill points. Finally I thought Duncan stayed in the guild alot. IMO you have many more opportunites (i.e. successful actions) for your level to go up while adventuring. And of course Duncan could just be unlucky. :) > Well, I do agree that the measure of experience in AG is power level... > always has been, always will be. But do not correlate weapon ability with > power level. This formula does not deal with specialist elves with lower > weapon skill and high spell level [Drackmoor, Nigel, Magitour, Blanka, > etc...] > I think it would be great to see Drackmoor with a level 9 greatsword. But I > would rather see him with a level 20 Daze spell... Of course not. But for straight fighter types their wpn level is a rather direct measure of their fighting ability. There are other skills, stats, DP's, D/R, etc, but the wpn level seems to be the biggest factor. > WELL SAID, Todd. > Now, ask yourself... what does fighting ability mean to you? Weapon skill is > one of many -fighting abilities- in AG. Drackmoor's fighting ability is a > level 16 Daze spell. > Duncan the Dark's fighting ability is his companion friend, Mr. skeletal > snake. Asa is, in the truest sense, the fighter with fighting ability as your > conversation is geared to. Exactly. I am definately not talking about others skills, only wpn levels compared to pl. Some skills are quite fine they way they are. :) The straight mage type doesn't typically attack with a weapon, which is why I think a power word that increases the chance to gain wpn levels is the way to go. That way the character would still have to use the wpn to gain the levels. Now elves (normally) have a higher cunning and can gain wpn levels faster then many other characters (although not all, i.e. Duncan ;-), but this is inherent to AG (i.e. races with lower multiple for cunning can get it higher and usually get higher levels in their wpn). Nothing you can really do about that. If an elf used their wpn they would also gain wpn levels, which is as it should be. > Once again, the best adventurers (and adventuring groups) are mulit faceted. > Todd, you remember quite well when Menagerie of Misfits (sp?) was in it's > heyday. Well developed spellcasters in back setting up the fighters in > front... Let's stick to the problem. The original problem was the disparity between wpn levels of characters and creatures at the same pl, that creatures wpn lvl seems to keep increasing as their power level increases whereas it does so MUCH more slowly for most characters, and the problem this is presenting to fighter types. Groups, other skills, etc, are different issues. I feel group strategy is very important for defeating creatures higher power level then your character. However if AG is designed that you need this vs creatures your characters pl then there is a problem. AG doesn't stand for Adventuring Groups. Characters should be able to defeat (or stand a good chance of) creatures around their pl without requiring the aid of other characters. Otherwise the creatures are too powerful for their pl. There are of course exceptions to this for certain creatures/characters, but as a general rule this should be true. > > DP's for EP's > > If it happens, I'm cashing in every freaking DP I can...After all, I'm just > not going to gain level 17 daze anytime soon... > Now I definately don't like the idea the EP for destiny idea. :) Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: MikeAPHL@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 20:10:42 -0400 Subject: Re: GUILD-L Weapon Skill Point Increasing Power Word ***** Todd writes: > The problem with just changing the "wall" for wsp levels is that all > the new characters would benefit from the change at a lower pl then the > higher pl characters..... > A power word takes destiny, something the higher pl level characters(unless they've > been using sxram or dying alot) usually have more of and can gain back fairly rapidly. >Thus they can get more uses out of the power word immediately then a lower > pl character. Again, I'm all for a Power Word -and absolutely, it would be better than entirely restructuring the system... I'm sorry if I sounded like I was suggesting that. A power word that uses a set amount of destiny regardless of PL is a good idea... I just don't feel right about an argument that suggests minimum weapon skill for a certain PL, or a certain required level of anything, for any PL. I think the focus of the Power Word should be to combat the "roadblock," rather than "leveling the playing field," without undermining the reasoning behind the roadblock in the first place. I don't know... maybe I'll feel differently after a couple thousand PL, and I'll want a closer balance between adventurer and creature. Maybe I'm just too "new" to know any better. I can only go by what I've experienced in AG until now. P.S. By the way, when this Power Word begins to be seriously researched, I'd like to help those involved with any type of EP/KP/gold donations I can scrape together... keep me informed... I'm outta here, Michael (Rathison/Turquine) ***** ------------------------------ From: Ruark RC Cleary <"CLEARY_R"@ngw.dep.state.fl.us> Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:07:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUILD-L "Ask Hugh" ***** Date: 06/14/1996 10:06 am (Friday) From: Ruark RC Cleary To: DEP-TLH.VAXGATE("EPIC66:PMDF:teleport.com:/ASC:guild-l") Subject: "Ask Hugh" This week on "Ask Hugh" we tackle "The Wall". AH - Greetings, Hugh. HB - Hiya'. AH - So, Hugh, with all this talk about WSP power words and DPs for EPs, we can say it's fairly established that "the wall" exists, and players are concerned about it? HB - Well... yes. AH - One question no one has asked "Ask Hugh" is, why is there a "wall"? Without knowing the exact secret formula, players know that for successfully attacking with a weapon, they have a chance% for gaining WSP, e.g. (PL x WSPtot x 0.00001 x fudge), with a bonus% based on how well they hit. This formula seems to go out the window when WSPtot = 26+. This becomes apparent when a character with 26 WSPs makes several critical attacks on one adventure, but doesn't earn a single WSP. For instance, a player reads, "Tilex penetrates the nictating membrane of the left eye of Lizardman Warrior causing serious damage to the occipital lobe of cerebellum"; but doesn't see a WSP gain because Tilex's WSPtot is 26. This is when players know they've hit "the wall". But again, the question is, why does that "wall" exist. HB - Well... if I told you, I'd have to grotto you. AH - Okay, that was expected. Let's try a different tack. No one is saying that Sten @23,586 PL with 562 WSPs should earn WSPs as easily as MoJo @23 PL with -1 WSPs (except, maybe, Sten). But, on the other hand, Sten has been at 562 WSPs since 1937 and he's beginning to feel like his development is somewhat stifled. And stifled characters mean unhappy players. [I know one high PL character that committed grottocide after having plateaued -- no skill gains at all for months.] The point being, one less character = $10 less of disposable income for AG. HB - Well... that's worth looking into... AH - And there you have it. That's all the time we have, so tune in next time when "Ask Hugh" goes to GenCon! Thanks as always to the ever- loquacious Hugh --- HB ... ... AH - --- and the whole AG crew. See ya' next time on "Ask Hugh"!!! ***** ------------------------------ From: Ruark RC Cleary <"CLEARY_R"@ngw.dep.state.fl.us> Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:25:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUILD-L Head Spikes -Reply ***** Date: 06/14/1996 10:25 am (Friday) From: Ruark RC Cleary To: DEP-TLH.VAXGATE("EPIC66:PMDF:teleport.com:/ASC:guild-l") Subject: GUILD-L Head Spikes -Reply >>> Luco @owner-guild-l 06/13/96 writes:>>> >>Tilex, Youse dandelion-muncherHmmm... maybe Glorfindel is right, after all. >>youse is.. between a quick death and a permanent cripplingWell, now we know you didn't pass that TQM course, don't we. >>Youse.. lucky Luca don't got no one else to cast protectionWho says I have been? Ever notice how Luca runs out in front and gets sliced to filets, while everyone else seems well-protected? One of the less well known spell settings (9/9/Luca=0). >>does youse think she left on her own? the frail was distracting >>youse, so Luca did what was necessary to focus youseThat's way below the belt, even for youse. If I really thought you had anything to do with Skye's disappearance, we'd be in the Grotto last week! But I know bullhockey when I hear it, and I know bulls produce it best. Youse just be glad I need you to back up Hoff on the front line. Tyelkakirisse, Paladin of Oolrick HOST! Host (not to be confused with The Order of the Elven Host) ***** ------------------------------ From: CFS@bea.com Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 12:58 Subject: GUILD-L Head Spikes cont. ***** Form: Internet Memo Text: (12 lines follow) >If I really thoughtIf youse really thought, youse might actually be dangerous >Well, now we know you didn't pass that TQM course, don't we.Yeah, Luca did, but Luca shifted his pair a' dimes back where they belonged >Hmmm... maybe Glorfindel is right, after all.Youse mean people is actually listening to what that bag of hot wind gots to say? Don LB Use Proportional Font: true ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 17:07:01 -0500 Subject: GUILD-L WSP PW ***** MikeAPHL@aol.com wrote: > (unless they've > been using sxram or dying alot) usually have more of Can't win them all. :) > destiny regardless of PL is a good idea... I just don't feel right about an > argument that suggests minimum weapon skill for a certain PL, or a certain > required level of anything, for any PL. I think the focus of the Power Word > should be to combat the "roadblock," rather than "leveling the playing > field," without undermining the reasoning behind the roadblock in the first > place. I don't know... maybe I'll feel differently after a couple thousand > PL, and I'll want a closer balance between adventurer and creature. Maybe just too "new" to know any better. I can only go by what I've experienced in Actually it's a combo of factors. If the "wall" didn't exist then characters would keep gaining wsps. If characters kept gaining wsps then there wouldn't be such a disparity between creatures and characters. Cause and effect and all that stuff. > > P.S. By the way, when this Power Word begins to be > seriously researched, I'd like to help those involved with any type of > EP/KP/gold donations I can scrape together... keep me informed... > Will do. :) First let's see if we can come to a consensus. Alright everybody here's a (NEW) proposal on how we could have the power word work. It's used at the beginning of an encounter/combat/fight. It has a control setting. For this we'd need Hugh's OKAY, I don't know of any control settings for power words and I'm not sure if he wants this, but I think it's necessary. The control setting is the number of wsps you wish to lower from your actual wsps when determining your chance to gain wps. For each wps you lower your weapon it costs 2 destiny. The effect only lasts for 10 SUCCESSFUL attempts (i.e. you get 10 attempts at gaining a wps). If you don't use all 10 during an encounter/fight you lose any extra attempts (i.e. there is no roll over of unused attempts from fight to fight). Also you can't lower you level below 20 weapon skill points (which necessarily means you need over 20 weapon skill points to use the power word). This is necessary to limit the number of wsps someone can expect to get from using this power word to about 5 (from 20 to 25, which seems to be where the wall is). I think there has to be a (relatively) hard limit on the possible returns from this power word to preserve game balance. I'll run through 2 examples, one with a character at 30 wpn points (almost lvl 7) and another at 45 (almost lvl 10). The character with 30 wpn points wants to raise his wpn level. He needs to decrease his effective wps to BELOW the wall if he wants to have good chance on gaining wps. Now he wants to gain as many as possible, so he should decrease his wps to 20. This is 10 wsps, which costs 20 destiny for one use.From the high cost this is more then likely something you would only used in a challenge fight. Let's say the character is fairly lucky and gains 5 wps. The character now has 35 wps (almost lvl 8). If they had ALOT of destiny stored up (100+) they could even do this again (the new cost would be 30 destiny to have effectively 20 wps). Lets say the character is again very lucky and gains 5 wps. The next cost would be 40 destiny, and the character now has 50 (or fewer) destiny. Now for the second example. The character has 45 wps. Wants to gain about 1 level, so needs to decrease to 20 wps. This is a reduction in 25 wps, which means 50 destiny. This means the character (unless they wish to go adventuring with less then 50 destiny) would have to spend time in the guild and place in their battle fights. In some sense this is more of a sacrifice then the lower wsp level characters would have to make, because the character would be giving up the possibility of higher ep/treasure that adventures can yield. I'm not saying this is good or bad, it's just the way destiny works. Let's say the character gains an entire level. The next time the character would want to use it they'd be at 50 wsps (almost lvl 11) and it would cost 60 destiny. This would necessitate even more time spent in the guild (or adventuring with below 50 destiny). There really isn't a limit to the lvl at which this could help, although at the higher levels this would necessitate more and more time spent in the guild gaining destiny over the normal limit possible while adventuring (or staying in the guild after using the destiny to gain 50 destiny again). There are a couple problems I see with this. First what if the character uses multiple weapons? The solution I see is to have the next 10 successful attacks/parries be the ones used, no matter what weapon those attacks/parries are with. I think it would be too difficult to have another control setting to determine which weapon you want the power word applied to, and if you modify your strategy you can be assured which weapon you'll use (could use time switch, not use secondary weapon for that fight, etc.) Second problem I see is with D/R. If all we do is increase characters wpn level, then those characters who dodge as a defense will be hurt whereas those that parry will gain. Two ways I see of solving this. First we could make dodging part of the power word. So it's the first 10 successful uses of a defense (be it parry, dodge, or retreat) or offense (with a weapon). Second is a separate power word for D/R. Not sure which would be better. So how does the new and revised version sound? Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 17:30:54 -0500 Subject: GUILD-L Dirty Tricks and usage ***** Just so people remember, many of the dirty tricks you can only use twice in a row. For example you can only distract someone twice, then they get an attack. I think the same is true with some of the other (non-damaging) dirty tricks. Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: aly@bdt.com (Alan Yip) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:39:54 -0800 Subject: Re: GUILD-L WSP PW ***** At 5:07 PM 6/14/96, Todd Woods wrote: > Will do. :) First let's see if we can come to a consensus. Alright >everybody here's a (NEW) proposal on how we could have the power word >work. > > It's used at the beginning of an encounter/combat/fight. It has a >control setting. For this we'd need Hugh's OKAY, I don't know of any >control settings for power words and I'm not sure if he wants this, but >I think it's necessary. The control setting is the number of wsps you >wish to lower from your actual wsps when determining your chance to gain >wps. For each wps you lower your weapon it costs 2 destiny. The effect >only lasts for 10 SUCCESSFUL attempts (i.e. you get 10 attempts at >gaining a wps). If you don't use all 10 during an encounter/fight you >lose any extra attempts (i.e. there is no roll over of unused attempts >from fight to fight). Also you can't lower you level below 20 weapon >skill points (which necessarily means you need over 20 weapon skill >points to use the power word). This is necessary to limit the number of >wsps someone can expect to get from using this power word to about 5 >(from 20 to 25, which seems to be where the wall is). I think there has >to be a (relatively) hard limit on the possible returns from this power >word to preserve game balance. I'll run through 2 examples, one with a >character at 30 wpn points (almost lvl 7) and another at 45 (almost lvl >10). > > > The character with 30 wpn points wants to raise his wpn level. He >needs to decrease his effective wps to BELOW the wall if he wants to >have good chance on gaining wps. Now he wants to gain as many as >possible, so he should decrease his wps to 20. This is 10 wsps, which >costs 20 destiny for one use.From the high cost this is more then likely >something you would only used in a challenge fight. Let's say the >character is fairly lucky and gains 5 wps. The character now has 35 wps >(almost lvl 8). If they had ALOT of destiny stored up (100+) they could >even do this again (the new cost would be 30 destiny to have effectively >20 wps). Lets say the character is again very lucky and gains 5 wps. >The next cost would be 40 destiny, and the character now has 50 (or >fewer) destiny. > > Now for the second example. The character has 45 wps. Wants to gain >about 1 level, so needs to decrease to 20 wps. This is a reduction in >25 wps, which means 50 destiny. This means the character (unless they >wish to go adventuring with less then 50 destiny) would have to spend >time in the guild and place in their battle fights. In some sense this >is more of a sacrifice then the lower wsp level characters would have to >make, because the character would be giving up the possibility of higher >ep/treasure that adventures can yield. I'm not saying this is good or >bad, it's just the way destiny works. Let's say the character gains an >entire level. The next time the character would want to use it they'd >be at 50 wsps (almost lvl 11) and it would cost 60 destiny. This would >necessitate even more time spent in the guild (or adventuring with below >50 destiny). There really isn't a limit to the lvl at which this could >help, although at the higher levels this would necessitate more and more >time spent in the guild gaining destiny over the normal limit possible >while adventuring (or staying in the guild after using the destiny to >gain 50 destiny again). > There are a couple problems I see with this. First what if the >character uses multiple weapons? The solution I see is to have the next >10 successful attacks/parries be the ones used, no matter what weapon >those attacks/parries are with. I think it would be too difficult to >have another control setting to determine which weapon you want the >power word applied to, and if you modify your strategy you can be >assured which weapon you'll use (could use time switch, not use >secondary weapon for that fight, etc.) > Second problem I see is with D/R. If all we do is increase characters >wpn level, then those characters who dodge as a defense will be hurt >whereas those that parry will gain. Two ways I see of solving this. >First we could make dodging part of the power word. So it's the first >10 successful uses of a defense (be it parry, dodge, or retreat) or >offense (with a weapon). Second is a separate power word for D/R. Not >sure which would be better. > > > So how does the new and revised version sound? > > > Todd >***** All I see happening here again is that there will be a rush to L9 and then the wall. Characters at L9+ will simply not use something like this, and if they did, might only use it once, maybe twice a year at most. What you would have to do is get rid of that 100 destiny point limit (when going on adventures) and increase the amount of destiny points an adventurer gets based on his PL. Right now, on adventures, I think how much destiny points one gets is PL independent (since I only run a high PL character, I've never bothered comparing). Since my character usually gets around 4 destiny points, I'm betting that 1500 PL characters at least get the same. As it is now, losing 60 destiny points for a character to possibly gain one wsp (and in all probability, a less that 20% chance of getting that one wsp) is not very appealing to anyone. The reason being is that it will force your character to be in the guild for a long time to recover DPs and the difference in the number of EPs you're going to lose out on in not adventuring would probably make it more appealing to go adventure and flat out buy the wsp using EPs, hence, I see no real benefit at all here for anyone at L9+. Note that your examples assumes a character is right on the edge of the next level. If a character was at 47 wsp... I'd doubt he's ever consider using this power word. When I said that someone might use it once or maybe twice a year at most, I was thinking that the L9+ character would only consider it IF and only if he was on the edge to the next level. Just my two cents again. Al PS. I'm curious, of those who seem to have stopped learning WSPs at L6 or so, how many have used different weapons over the course of their career? I would bet the majority of the L9+ crowd never used any other weapon than the weapon they started out with on turn 1. I wonder if the number of weapons a character is trained in has anything to do with how fast he can pick up WSP over the long run? Just a curiosity and not to imply anything... - ------------------------------------------------------U-------------------- U R N N D T I Signature E S C C R O T O - ----------------------N---------------------------------------------------- ***** ------------------------------ From: CMARSH1111@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:01:08 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L Path ***** All, How do you get to Undercity ( in Antar) encounter area 26 Any help would be great, Thanks, Chris ***** ------------------------------ From: CMARSH1111@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:34:56 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L found Scroll ***** Alls, Me's find 1 pale blue scroll in sewer last turn Antar..Me's will trade cause me's can't read to good( sad look). Furriuos Pummeler ***** ------------------------------ From: CMARSH1111@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:35:11 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L Small Battering Ram ***** The Barstow Fighter's Guild offers its first item up for sale...Its a Small Battering Ram..This item will fit in your Fostil's Pack and will be very useful when you encounter locked or stuck doors.. The only downside is is cost alot more to make than we intended.. But if you want one do the following...Transfer to Me a Dragon Bone, 25 kp, 25 mp, and 1,750 gold( to cover the cost of the other 2 commom components).. Lord Kleevanard #661 ***** ------------------------------ From: Thorron <thorron@inforamp.net> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 15:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GUILD-L Path ***** >From: CMARSH1111@aol.com >Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:01:08 -0400 >To: guild-l@teleport.com >Subject: GUILD-L Path >Sender: owner-guild-l@teleport.com >Reply-To: CMARSH1111@aol.com > >***** > >All, How do you get to Undercity ( in Antar) encounter area 26 > >try 1-7-9 (1-2-9-15-18-22-23-26-27-28 exit) > When in doute....fake it Thorron T ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 18:12:04 -0500 Subject: GUILD-L EP ***** There is most definately a relationship between amount of ep and adventuring score, and probably site/difficulty level as well. Here's what I've noticed the last couple of turns with my characters. Morin, lvl 20 Skree, solo. Before last encounter had 63 ep. That last encounter was a Warrior Herdling and Swordmaster. He hit 5/6 vs. them, no defenses. Both are well below Morin's almost 3000 pl. He had no other encounters nor traps. He ended up with an adventuring score in the mid 90's. He also ended up with 99 ep. I REALLY doubt he got 36 ep for taking out a Warrior Herdling and Swordmaster. Brother Battlewise, lvl 18 Isurus, solo. Before last encounter has 61 ep. Last encounter was a bunch of hobgoblins but nothing major (mostly Smellys). Had a trap after the encounter then end of adventure. Adventuring score in the mid-upper 90's. Also ended up with 99 ep. Again I doubt he got 38 ep from this encounter. Big kicker here was BB only got 5 kill points, whereas Morin had in the upper 20's. Obviously BB wasn't fighting as tough opponents for his power level (Skree is a tougher site), yet he still got alot of ep. Makes me think adventuring score and lvl are more important then how many successful actions you take (although you need so many successful actions to get a high adventuring score). So seems that at certain difficulty levels/sites if you get a certain adventuring score you will get a certain minimum amount of ep. And that minimum ep could be as high as 99 (maybe higher if you had a 100 adventuring score as well). I've been told that certain sites are power level dependent. The example was at Isurus after a certain power level you don't earn as much. I have seen 3000+ pl characters gain 90+ ep at Isurus on a lvl 18 so not sure if this is true. Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: CFS@bea.com Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 08:28 Subject: re: GUILD-L Small Battering Ram ***** Form: Reply Text: (6 lines follow) Kleevy, How will this help us weak Elves, and also weak halflings. Is it a fixed strength boost (which won't help me too much)? Glorfindel Spokeself, Order of the Elven Host Original text: (16 lines follow) >From MAIL@ih {CMARSH1111@aol.com}, on 06/15/96 12:35 PM: ***** The Barstow Fighter's Guild offers its first item up for sale...Its a Small Battering Ram..This item will fit in your Fostil's Pack and will be very useful when you encounter locked or stuck doors.. The only downside is is cost alot more to make than we intended.. But if you want one do the following...Transfer to Me a Dragon Bone, 25 kp, 25 mp, and 1,750 gold( to cover the cost of the other 2 commom components).. Lord Kleevanard #661 ***** ------------------------------ End of V1 #1 ************* ***** Up