AG Digest #15 From: Brett Mason <apeiros@teleport.com> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 00:00:00 +0000 Subject: V1 #15 Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 06:30:36 -0700 (PDT) From: owner-guild-l-digest Reply-To: $SENDER To: guild-l-digest Friday, 23 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 015 ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Lee <mlee@discover-net.net> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: GUILD-L Mag Resist ***** Chris S. wrote: >As for increased dwarven magic resistance -- ain't the little buggers tuff >enuf to beat as it is. You want to help races, look to the pitiful >half-troll. If ever a race needed a break, there it is. Bad as everyone >thinks minotaurs are, half-trolls are much worse off. Give the bonuses >where they are most needed. Actually, I think dwarves need a boost at the top end of the game. They've been falling behind against humans, gobos, and elves over the past two years. Trainable magic resistance won't help against the fighter types but it'd make things more difficult for elves and magic using monsters/npcs. There would have to be a huge drawback to trainable magic resist though. Half-trolls aren't as pitiful as minos anymore. :) Face any Infernal Warriors or Azcor lately? :) Given enough time (usually one extra year or three :( ) they turn out pretty good with auto-regen. Mike ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:26:42 -0500 Subject: Re: GUILD-L Paper Mayhem ***** Gordon Blair wrote: > Tell me about it, I consulted with Todd Woods (among others) over the > numbers. My *hope* had been to inform a new player why, say, a greatsword > was listed the way it was, and what benefits (roughly) from STR he would > get, etc. Alright bring my name into it. :) I haven't seen the article so don't know everything in it. You did talk with Shawn (Lizzie) about some of this as well. My brother and I do disagree on some points. Without knowing the code or being able to wrest some gem of wisdom from Hugh (which hopefully will be accurate, at least for a few turns) alot of AG is subjective. Example, I know some (experienced) players who think having a high devotion (zealous or more) to Mordtch adds at most the equivalent of leather to PF but from running several Mordtch worshippers (HT's of course) it seems to add ALOT more then that. > > >The assumption on your part that Mike Lee had anything to do with the > >"adjustment" of minotaurs, or any skill for that matter, is completely > >ludicrious. > > Good. Let's have some more "ludicrous" things then, Andy. > > Example: > > Todd Woods argued aggressively with Hugh for half-trolls to receive a STA > bonus to regeneration. Now, half-trolls get a slight boost over and above > their regular amounts from Regen. Noone else wanted this Andy, just Todd, > the half-troll crusader that he is, and *yes* it is now a feature in the game. (Todd has a stunned look on his face. He starts to mutter to himself "I have power, I really do have power.") Yes YOU to can INFLUENCE Hugh Bayer. All you have to do is pester him. (BIG EVIL GRIN) Here's another example. Distraction. Not many people were using Distraction but I know of several characters that got a high lvl in Distraction and were using it on adventures. It was only when these characters started fighting other characters in guild/tournaments that people complained to Hugh about the skill. NOW there are several limitations to the skill. One is that it wouldn't be used for more then 2 times in a row before your opponent gets an attack. Another was that you had an increasing chance of resisting it the more times an opponent uses it on you during a fight. This hurt several high powered level characters (who had gotten Distraction to lvl 8+). But it wasn't until the "problem" was brought to Hugh's attention (i.e. people complained about it) that Distraction was changed. Another point is that many times only one side is heard. For example how many characters who had a high lvl in Distraction were consulted about the proposed changes in the skill BEFORE the skill was changed? People complained to Hugh that high lvl Distractions were too powerful. Hugh listened to them and then made his decision. Seems to me that for something like this you should consult both those who would be helped and hindered by the skill. Hugh does try to be fair about any proposed changes. However he's not omniscient (even if he is omnipotent ;-). IMO things like player surveys (or mailing lists :-) should be used to get all players opinions/thoughts on a matter before any change in the game that would adversely affect some characters, just so that Hugh will get both/all sides of a problem before coming to a decision. Could just keep it to general questions (like are HT's pathetic :-). BTW NONE of my characters have distraction. I didn't think it was a very good skill to begin with and the changes made it really stink. Maybe there might be some design that could make it useful but there are many other skills/stats that the EP would be better spent in. > > The address is: woods@cs.uiowa.edu > > Feel free to send Todd money whenever you want, Andy. Checks are fine. Need my home address? :) > >to include Skeletal Snakes and Ravenous Ghouls in the summoning codes, even > >though they are not as high as the PL as an OWZ? Will I be blamed for > >"influencing the GM of a game" because I did it first? > > Certainly, if it somehow screws-up some other feature of the game, or > manages to castrate other players' designs. And you most certainly > **should** get blamed, might I add. I agree. Although I must also add that if Hugh changes the system in a way that castrate's a player's design without consulting that player's opinion first because some other players complained about something in the game, then Hugh should also deserve some blame. Geez, that was a long sentence. Finally remember that AG is a business. Hugh will generally listen to what people say about the game and make changes based upon this. If majority of the players want some change then Hugh will (usually) implement it. However if the change hurts some characters who were designed around the way the game currently works the players of these characters will feel like the time and money they've put into the character was for nothing. Can't really blame Hugh for something like this. That only leaves the player(s) who complained to Hugh in the first place. Feel free to flame. :) Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:42:18 -0500 Subject: Re: GUILD-L Mag Resist ***** Mike Lee wrote: > > > Actually, I think dwarves need a boost at the top end of the game. They've > been falling behind against humans, gobos, and elves over the past two > years. Trainable magic resistance won't help against the fighter types but > it'd make things more difficult for elves and magic using monsters/npcs. > There would have to be a huge drawback to trainable magic resist though. Elves have spells, humans and gobos have better stats. Dwarves have neither so in the long run suffer (as do most other races IMO). > > Half-trolls aren't as pitiful as minos anymore. :) Face any Infernal > Warriors or Azcor lately? :) Given enough time (usually one extra year or > three :( ) they turn out pretty good with auto-regen. > Ya right. If I could pick what stats I want my character to have at 10k+ pl's, without the need to worry about how much ep it would cost or the racial penalties to stats, then I could make a good HT. :) Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: Gordon Blair <shaitan@interlog.com> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:05:45 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L Article In Full ***** Howdy! 8^) Ok, David Ondzes (the terror of You Rule! himself) was asking re; Paper Mayhem & the article therein. One other person has asked, etc, so nows your chance to take shots at me. 8^o <--(am I pleased) While my web-page was torn down 2 months ago, the article has been placed there for easy download: http://www.interlog.com/~shaitan Note that I *really* tried hard to be balanced in the article, staying away from conjecture. I *could* have written some fluffy article about, say, one of TOAD's adventures (that was pretty much what Trey Stone and Vaughn Heppner's articles were like, more stories than anything else) but, well, I thought substance might be a little nicer (and you can sink your teeth into it)! 8^] <--(retarded smile) On the web-page there are 3 different formats: Word 6.0, text and MS-DOS text. Not sure what the difference with the last two is, but just in case I used both. In any event, have fun: I'll be gone Friday afternoon until Monday (leaving town) so no answering mail, sorry. Also I'm *very* busy these next 3 weeks, if guild-l starts taking too much time, odds are good I'll unsubscribe again. Note that I only subscribed to answer these things re; the article. I just can't spend several hours answering mail, etc, sorry. Gord ***** ------------------------------ From: Thorron <thorron@inforamp.net> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: GUILD-L Mag Resist ***** >Actually, I think dwarves need a boost at the top end of the game. They've >been falling behind against humans, gobos, and elves over the past two >years. Trainable magic resistance won't help against the fighter types but >it'd make things more difficult for elves and magic using monsters/npcs. >There would have to be a huge drawback to trainable magic resist though. > I agree (bet ya was wondering when i was gunna stick up for dwarves huh?) up to a point...Dwarves start to botom out...how much aviod trap do you need...and that will not keep ya from being squiched by some ARG big monster (oh look...a trap (mash)) >Half-trolls aren't as pitiful as minos anymore. :) Face any Infernal >Warriors or Azcor lately? :) Given enough time (usually one extra year or >three :( ) they turn out pretty good with auto-regen. > Auto regen...that mean I have to put sweetems regen up from lvl 2? (heh) > When in doubt....fake it Thorron T ***** ------------------------------ From: Mike Lee <mlee@discover-net.net> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 21:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GUILD-L Wed.'s AOL RTC ***** Chat log now available for your viewing pleasure on my AG page. Guess Fenrir finally got out of the ooze pool for some ale. Mike http://discover-net.net/~mlee ***** ------------------------------ From: Matt Burgess <mburgess@discover-net.net> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: GUILD-L Wed.'s AOL RTC ***** At 09:30 PM 8/22/96 -0700, you wrote: >***** > >Chat log now available for your viewing pleasure on my AG page. Guess >Fenrir finally got out of the ooze pool for some ale. > >Mike >http://discover-net.net/~mlee Ya gotta have your priorities... I think my brain is running out my ears when I am in the pool... Like I said, ya need your priorities; thoughts of wanton violence followed closely by Dwarven Ale. (Fenrir then trips and nosedives back into the pool) Matt ***** ------------------------------ From: David Johnson <drj1@freenet.tlh.fl.us> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 07:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: GUILD-L Finally, A Challenge ***** Luca, (my darling child) The more I think the more I cringe. I would probably lose against anyone but you anywhere near my power level. Here, let me give you some advice... Luca - when you fight me - wear more armor. Luca - when you fight me - use a faster weapon. Luca - when you fight me - ignore my attacks. Maybe - you might - win - next time - if I don't bring my good weapons, see level 2 buckler, if I don't wear armor, and if I turn off my combat magic fully, instead of just using speed out of my bag of tricks. Come now - I did not trip you unfairly or any such thing... I stood toe to hoof with you. I made the fight linger because I wanted 10 EP and to get some buckler points as I felt you would use your fist, but I forgot that you would insist on swinging that halberd at probably the smallest, lightest, most dodge capable female, willing to toy with you. Come now... if I had not brought my warhammer - just in case - I probably would have done even better. Sad. Maybe in a half year or so, you will get good enough to fight me. Train hard. Eat right. Eat your dandelions - as those who do - have no problem fighting me. Take advice from Tilex, he can beat me with one blow. Yours was a bit feeble. Maybe you should buy up your strength if all you got is one shot. Although stamina makes a real man. Cunning makes a good talker and your technique could be linked to Dexterity. Dang - so many problems and so little time. Moo. Silatef Emmef "Is that all?" (Most Unsatisfied Priestess of Fineous) P.S. - I think it is impossible to get lucky with youse. *********************************************************************** ***** David Ray Johnson ***** "Hawkwind" ***** ------------------------------ From: cfs@bea.com (Chris Settipani) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 08:04 Subject: GUILD-L H-T vs. MINO ***** Form: Internet Memo Text: (27 lines follow) >> >> Half-trolls aren't as pitiful as minos anymore. :) Face any Infernal >> Warriors or Azcor lately? :) Given enough time (usually one extra year or >> three :( ) they turn out pretty good with auto-regen. >> > Ya right. If I could pick what stats I want my character to have at >10k+ pl's, without the need to worry about how much ep it would cost or >the racial penalties to stats, then I could make a good HT. :) > Todd Thank you, Todd!! Half-trolls have to wallow in mediocrity (sorry, Sweetums) for so long. Option 1: Go for auto-regen right away, putting about 75%+ of your EPs into the skill. Result: You end up fighting stronger elves and halflings. Option 2: Raise regen gradually. Result: Your stronger than elves and halflings [but not by much], but you get caught in the get injured/regen circle. Option 3: Hold off on regen at first, concentrating on stats. Result: Why be a half-troll then--so you don't need healers on adventures? Even minos have better stat raises. I've tried options 1 and 2 [killed 'em both after frustration set in], and, of course, my mino is [in]famous, and I feel confident in saying that the mino is far better off. However, I'm only a 4-year veteran [one tour-of-duty completed], so maybe I'm missing something here. Use Proportional Font: true ***** ------------------------------ From: cfs@bea.com (Chris Settipani) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 08:10 Subject: GUILD-L Re: Finally, A Challenge ***** Form: Internet Memo Text: (11 lines follow) Silatef, Youse is gonna die. Let's take this out into the field, and request no one stops the fight for nothing! Bring each and every trick youse thinks youse gots, and Luca will bring his best. We cans do this dance on 155, so that's enuf lead time for youse to maybe shed 50 or so pounds, 'cuz youse is gonna need every iota of quickness youse can muster. Luca will devastate. Luca will cripple. Luca will make sure youse can't even have an open casket. And then, for the first time since Spear Fisher went running off into the night, Luca will smile. Don Luca Brasi Use Proportional Font: true ***** ------------------------------ From: Ruark RC Cleary <"CLEARY_R"@ngw.dep.state.fl.us> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:43:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Flames Consume GUILD-L. Story at.. AIIIEEEE!!!..... ***** Date: 08/22/1996 06:19 pm (Thursday) From: Ruark RC Cleary To: DEP-TLH.VAXGATE("EPIC66:PMDF:teleport.com:/ASC:guild-l") Subject: Flames Consume GUILD-L. Story at.. AIIIEEEE!!!..... >>From owner-guild-l 08/22/96 02:18pm >> >>characters in the game except one (Mike Quigley and his mino Kroll). Say, did O.J. Kunzite change his name to Kroll after the trial thing? >>a six-year veteran player of AG, he'd never let me, or any other >>player, find that information out Except the Woods and Firches of Iowa, who - combined - run half the characters in AG. >>If any veteran player had that much position in an established game >>like AG, he'd be making REAL MONEY off of it. Umm... You didn't know that Count(ess) Drax earns more credit than the turn cost, each turn? >>[... you'd think if he was good he'd stop bitching]. Some people enjoy bitching for its own sake. >>veteran players explore the newest areas first.. talked to Hugh about >>what works, what doesn't work, what's too powerful, and what's >>good for game balance: Always selflessly thinking of helping the "little guy" despite the enormous personal sacrifices they must endure... >>Will I be blamed if I ask Hugh to include.. Ravenous Ghouls <a what?> Well, we can't blame Hugh. >>Will I be blamed for "influencing the GM" because I did it first? Yep, though not for being first, but for not asking Luca's permission first. >>the final decision has always been with Hugh and always will be Hugh makes decisions??? ;-) - -AelwonF, putting out the Flames with gasoline ***** ------------------------------ From: Ruark RC Cleary <"CLEARY_R"@ngw.dep.state.fl.us> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:23:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Makes you miss those "inactive" days of GUILD-L, huh? ***** Date: 08/22/1996 07:33 pm (Thursday) From: Ruark RC Cleary To: DEP-TLH.VAXGATE("EPIC66:PMDF:teleport.com:/ASC:guild-l") Subject: Makes you miss those "inactive" days of GUILD-L, huh? >>From owner-guild-l 08/22/96 04:10pm >> >>Good. Let's have some more "ludicrous" things then Yeah! What he said. >>half-trolls get a slight boost.. Noone else wanted this Have any H-Ts asked Hugh to take it back because they didn't want it? >>I've got other examples just like that one Let's hear `em then! >>by the by, that extra STA bonus is one of the best features of the skill But, you just said it was only a "slight" boost?? >>Feel free to send money whenever you want Now now, boys. None o' that. You'll invoke The Wrath of the Moderator. >>if it somehow screws-up some other feature of the game, Now that we need an example of. >>or manages to castrate other players' designs This is unavoidable. But the castratees will be those veteran players. For instance, the one objector to the phased-ratio AP change, which improves the game for (almost) everyone, was someone whose design is based on winning Guild battles solely by having all those free actions at the beginning. Besides being unrealistic (so to speak), it just plain isn't fair to all the other players to *not* fix something that improves The Game merely because one (1) character will suffer adverse effects. Many a PBM has died due to old-timers not wanting improvements to The Game - that which attracts new players by making it better in the beginning - because the established players don't equally benefit. Sorry. That's life. You can't blaze the trail and then blame people for following it. >>And you most certainly **should** get blamed, might I add. No, you may not. Unless the person is trying to change/keep unchanged a part of the game, just so s/he remains the top [race] in the game, as opposed to encouraging changes that improve The Game, but do not benefit that person's characters. >>Well, Hugh is pretty tricky & he usually gets the last laugh 8^) Woo-hoo! There's someone who values his life lightly. Better to say that Hugh wants us to play (and *enjoy* - in case you've forgotten why we're here in the first place) the game, as opposed to dissecting it and reducing it to formulae and random die rolls. ***The preceding Deep Thoughts have been brought to you by a Player (see line at top of screen - which I can't figure out how to get rid of, but at least it's not as bad that binary mail stuff) who doesn't care if we all get along, because once Aelwon gets his 2X Blast and Elven Pendant, he's going to KILL YOU ALL!!! BWAH HA HA HAH HAAAA....... errr.. sorry. Too much caffeine and an unshielded monitor. I'll be okay... ...AHHHH HAH HAH HAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!*** ***** ------------------------------ From: Ruark RC Cleary <"CLEARY_R"@ngw.dep.state.fl.us> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:23:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUILD-L -Reply ***** Date: 08/22/1996 07:47 pm (Thursday) From: Ruark RC Cleary To: DEP-TLH.VAXGATE("EPIC66:PMDF:teleport.com:/ASC:guild-l") Subject: GUILD-L -Reply >>From owner-guild-l 08/22/96 05:20pm >> >> Ruark RC Cleary wrote: No he didn't! It was, me, Aelwon. That's just some fictitious name for a courier. I'm a real boy! No!! Don't turn off the holodeck! aaaahhhhhh..... >>Elven pendant will be next on the list after Hugh doubles Blast damage. ALRIGHT!! I'm there! >>The secret is to bug Hugh only on one thing at a time. Got it! Thanks. Hey, Hugh: BLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLA STBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLASTBLAST........ ***** ------------------------------ From: Ruark RC Cleary <"CLEARY_R"@ngw.dep.state.fl.us> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:23:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUILD-L Finally, A Challenge [I meant ALL of BARSTOW-I don't even live there] ***** Date: 08/22/1996 07:55 pm (Thursday) From: Ruark RC Cleary To: DEP-TLH.VAXGATE("EPIC66:PMDF:teleport.com:/ASC:guild-l") Subject: Finally, A Challenge [I meant ALL of BARSTOW-I don't even live there] >>From owner-guild-l 08/22/96 05:45pm >> >Okay. <The> Barstow Guild vs. Luca on 150. Tickets on sale now. >>Luca could use the exercise. Bring it on!! >>>(Golden is seen placing 1000 gold on Aelwon in advance) >>One of Luca's bookies is seen covering the bet, and seeing whom >>else is foolish enuf to bet against Luca. >(Aelwon is seen handing a bag of gold to Silatef, who grins >mischievously.) ***** ------------------------------ From: Ruark RC Cleary <"CLEARY_R"@ngw.dep.state.fl.us> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:23:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUILD-L Re: -Reply (i.e. to respond, answer, converse) ***** Date: 08/22/1996 08:05 pm (Thursday) From: Ruark RC Cleary To: DEP-TLH.VAXGATE("EPIC66:PMDF:teleport.com:/ASC:guild-l") Subject: Re: -Reply (i.e. to respond, answer, converse) >>From owner-guild-l 08/22/96 06:11pm >> >>(one of us really should read that Paper Mayhem article! :)). What?? And dispense with innuendo and baseless conjecture? ...well.. okay. I need to go home anyway. I'll make up today's work with tomorrow's 16 hour day (we don't call it flextime for nothing). ***** ------------------------------ End of V1 #15 ************** ***** Up