AG Digest #21 From: Brett Mason <apeiros@telport.com> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:00:00 +0000 Subject: V1 #21 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 05:48:50 -0700 (PDT) From: owner-guild-l-digest Reply-To: $SENDER To: guild-l-digest Wednesday, 28 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 021 ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Burgess <mburgess@discover-net.net> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 18:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: GUILD-L Tharkan Pools & ramblings ***** Tood Woods wrote: > From what I've seen the extra bonuses Tharkan gives at high devotion >are more then a lvl or two in MR. Also one lvl really didn't seem to >help all THAT much. I wouldn't keep staying in the guild/pools. Seems >more BAD things happen then good. Kinda like the temple of Safandi. :-) See, this is how it all gets started. 8) True Tharkan gives bonuses, but many of these are near impossible to tell the true amount. I don't see how anyone could say how much one or two levels in mag resis help or don't help. It is one of those skills that you would have to see actual numbers (or somehow get Hugh to talk). Your first sentence is what leads to people getting upset thinking that the bonuses are to great, etc. When Tharkan first came out, even Mike thought the bonuses were too much. I am sure glad he didn't call Hugh about it. You didn't, did you Mike? ;) Granted I am just getting back to playing after a year, but before I quit people were complaining about things and throwing numbers around about the skills and other stuff and it just wasn't correct. Hugh even thought there was a certain person or persons spreading misinformation on purpose. I think I have a point here.... When I first started, I thought Power was too powerful (I had absolutely nothing to do with its change!) and later found out it was changed. Today, I think there were ways to beat these characters with high Power that wasn't apparent to anyone at that time. So my point would be that before any changes are made, it should be discussed if there is a way to get around the problem without trying to make a change. If there is a change, give it a while to see what happens. In the case of Power, I think it was castrated more than necessary and should have been readjusted (and still should be, oh Hugh..). The action point thing hasn't been tested yet and it is unknown what effect it will really have. Maybe SpearBastard can still win many of his fights WITH the change (I'm suprised he wins any) if it affects guild fights. It seems to be a change for the better, so it should be given a try. I haven't seen one solid argument in this debate to keep the system as it is. > Can't really say HT's have a low multiple for spells either. In truth >I think stats count for more then anything in the game in the long run >(although low spell multiples are a close second). The bigger the >difference in stat multiples the sooner the race starts to experience >"problems". The stat multiple between humans and dwarves isn't that >much but is noticeable at the high lvls. Actually I've been told that >Hugh has changed MR so it's partly power lvl based. The higher the pl >the more affect it has. Ask Steve Ferrel about this. Not sure if it >was a proposed change or if it's been implemented. Since it is unknown, I have to totally disregard it as hear-say. > What about Lizardmen? Mino's? Everyone can get headbutt and tail whip >certainly isn't a necessary skill for well rounded groups. Seems to me >there are many "redundant" races in AG. True, some skills are available to all races, but there is one race that has a bonus of some sort with the skill. I guess you could look at amny races and say they are redundant. Of course Tailwhip isn't necessary for a well rounded group, but what would the Lizardman be without it? It gives them a bit of a fighting edge in an attempt to justify the higher stat costs. From what I have been told, there were no races when the game was in its test stage. Races were added one by one. Hugh attempted to make them different from Humans and appeared to do a decent job. We can now see that maybe some races are disadvantaged too much, but I think he has a hard time making any change affecting this. > In case you didn't know HT's can get multiple levels of P/D res. by >drinking potions of P/D resistance. Not always easy. My HT has drank >about 12 potions and gained 2 lvls. I know others who have gotten lvl >3-4 with the same amount though. A lvl or 2 in P/D Res. doesn't help as >much as a potion of P/D R. I am very disturbed by this news. What a total disregard for the plight of Halflings everywhere. I will have to have Mike call Hugh on this one right away. I can't imagine Sxar being replaced as taste tester by a smelly HT. Halflings will be able to raise P/D in the near future! I can pester Hugh with the best of them. 8P > To maintain game balance you can't just go around and let every race >that has a special skill raise it. There are some races more powerful >then others. Example, I'd say minos are already more powerful then >several of the other races. Getting hardhead to increase certainly >won't help this. Also remember that there are some bonuses for the >races you just don't see. Example, some races have a greater change to >gain DP's then others. Minos, HT's, ogres, and dwarves seem to have a >MUCH greater chance of gaining DP's then humans or elves. Really? I haven't noticed that. Oh, wait. You said "seem to". I want facts man! >Finally it's >the affect of the skill. Certainly P/D res. is a VERY minor skill. P/D >res. doesn't help vs. contracting diseases (at least lvl 3+ hasn't >helped much). Also P/D res. only helps on advs. and only vs. the >minority of creatures in the game. I certainly don't see why halflings >can't raise P/D res. the same way as HT's. Also remember some of the >"special" skills can already be raised but need ep to raise. Elves have >low spell multiples as their "special" skill, ogres beserk, HT's regen. >Usually the skills that can be increased through ep need to be increased >MANY more lvls to get the same affect. A lvl 15 Blast is fairly >effective but a lvl 15 Magic Resistance would mean ALOT more. :) So >remember if Hugh changes a skill so that it can now go up he might also >change the way it works so it's not as affective as before at the same >lvl. Yes, Hugh may change how the skill works. I can handle that. It would allow me to decide how much mag resis I want and not some set amount I have no opportunity to change. I was probably one factor in making Dusty Red Scrolls scarce (or gone totally). Either that or Hugh ignored my whining. I wrote him many a letter complaining that he was basically giving everyone else what made Dwarves special. I even said I wouldn't mind if other races got mag resis from scrolls as long as it didn't go past trained. Dwarves of course could use them to go to level whatever. This was the same with the scrolls that gave P/D. I don't care if allowing Halflings to raise P/D would be a minor change and not really affect them, but it would be a step in the right direction. Why give the skills to make these races different (and change costs for stats, skills) if they can't raise them? In case no one remembers me, I run Fenrir Stonecutter and Sxar. What? You don't remember them? Fenrir was leader of SOTBR for a long time. He made it what it was until Golden locked him in the Temple of Tharkan in Ciston (not much traffic over there). She was always jealous of his status in the guild. Sxar just followed Tawny into her den of pleasure and finally escaped and went in search of Fenrir after seeing what a mockery Golden had made of SOTBR. They shall return to Barstow in the future... Someone remembers them, right? Anyone? Matt - The universe circles around me so don't burst it ***** ------------------------------ From: STRYFE618@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 20:58:19 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L Stuff ***** Ok, lets start from the top. 1.- Aelwon, a slow elf is a character design problem and not a game problem. Don't confuse the two. If the Elven Host is supposed to teach younger elves to become better, you're going about it wrong. Instead of going out with 6 high level elves and two young elves at level 12-15, you should think about taking 3 or 4 young elves with 1 or at the most 2 high level elves at a lower level. This solves a few problems. One is that a young elf can not daze or vertigo most of the monsters the big dogs are generating, making his or her being there worthless anyway. Two, If the senior elf concentrates on keeping the highest monsters down or dazed, he/she can let the elves who want to concentrate on blast, bow or such to get better target practice in while the others select lowest power level. The senior elf only uses offensive magic after a certain time, letting the juniors get as much as possible out of each encounter. Three, this takes care of action points because the majority are of roughly the same power level and one senior elf won't slant it too much. Problem solved without changing the game. Look to your strategy before changing the game to make up for your incompetance. 2.- Luca, I'm scaring myself because I'm starting to like your attitude. I even chuckled when you talked about Lizard boots and belts, as you know my weakness for Mino steaks. 3.- I asked Mike(Nigel) about the power words for you guys cause hes on vacation and I don't know if his computer is going to catch up to him today. Fragnossis- If thats how you spell it- If said cost 20 destiny and gives Hate Skeleton for the encounter. Delgarro- somebody spell these right cause this is off the top of my head- 20 destiny and gives Hate Zombie for the encounter. 5.- Aelwon again. I do agree about the tree guy. And Polly called you the queen of elves, you just got it mixed up is all. We all know that I am her king ;-) 6.- Todd is right about Power. Although some may argue that Darkrage was bad off before the change, there was a big difference after Power was changed. The actions lost after certain levels is harder and harder to offset as you raise the skill making it not worth raising. 7.- Aelwon, this picking and choosing where and how you want the action point change isn't doing you any good. The "I want it here but not here" is crap. If its changed I hope Hugh changes it across the board, not piecemeal like you want it. Whew, thats it for now unless I think of something else. Oh Aelwon its Adventurers Guild not Adventuring Guild. The spreader of, Stryfe ***** ------------------------------ From: Matt Burgess <mburgess@discover-net.net> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: GUILD-L Re:Action Points,mostly HT's ***** >>However it's Hugh's firm opinion that >>HT's are already powerful enough and he's very hestitant to make even >>minor changes. I disagree. :) > Mike Lee replied: >I agree with Hugh. :) > What, does Hugh get all these messages? There has to be a reason Mike is trying to suck up to Hugh here. Maybe he has gotten so used to it he can't stop. Andy taught him well. BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. >What? Are you kidding me?!? Me, run a HT?! :) My friends would lock me up >and throw away the key if they ever saw me run a HT. Nope, most of my HT >info comes from you. :) I base my opinions primarily on the regeneration >skill. I've seen what it can do and it's a very powerful skill. > >Mike Mike run a HT? What a joke. The man only runs Humans because they require no thought or strategy. Matt - I will be sleeping with one eye open for a while and training those 'coons to attack any mlee person sneaking up the hill... ***** ------------------------------ From: HughBayer@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:20:19 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L Action Pt change rumored ***** on 8/22/96 Ruark Cleary wrote: For the GenCon-challenged, there was an agreement(?) to switch to a phased ratio AP system In actuality no such agreement was reached. There will definitely be notice to all players via newsletter if any such change is being prepared. We are considering making it an option which would only be activated by both sides of the combat consenting. You'll be informed if that option becomes available. In regards to the above mentioned agreement(?) and other AG news and rumors, if you don't see it mentioned by the GM or an NPC in the newsletter, then don't count on it being true. In the past two hours that I have read through the last two weeks or so of mail here I have come across some comments and actions attributed to me. Like you, I don't enjoy being misquoted. Both Todd and Gordon have some interesting theories on game mechanics and changes that have been made in the game. I have talked and corresponded with Todd, and corresponded with Gordon. But I don't agree with everything I've seen attributed to me from them, and ask that you realize their version of events may not be accurate. One example would be Todd's version of the HT enhancements made. His general message is largely correct, but the details are not. If you are ever wondering about something, e-mail the GMs (not in this guild list, as we may not reply) at the address HughBayer@aol.com. We may not be able to tell you everything you want to know (AG is not meant to be a number-crunching game), but we will try to answer your questions. Best wishes, Hugh Bayer ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:22:56 -0500 Subject: Re: GUILD-L Tharkan Pools & ramblings ***** Matt Burgess wrote: > > See, this is how it all gets started. 8) True Tharkan gives > bonuses, but many of these are near impossible to tell the true amount. I > don't see how anyone could say how much one or two levels in mag resis help > or don't help. It is one of those skills that you would have to see I played my dwarf for many turns (he's in storage for now). He was in Ciston and guild bound for most of his career. He fought many types of characters but in Ciston at that time most were NPC's, some spell casters. So I could see the affects of trained MR vs the same characters turn after turn (you know how often Hugh increases NPC's :-). After devouting to Tharkan, with a low devoutness rating, after only a couple of turns in the bath, Mirn gained a lvl in magic resistance. So I could see how he fared vs. the same characters at low devotion to Tharkan. Then I could see the affect of having lvl 1 MR vs. the same opponents. Then after several more turns of pumping tremendous amounts of gold and visiting baths, gain converts, etc, he had a pretty good devoteness rating. At that point he was resisting alot of spells and none of the NPC's he fought before could affect him. Mirn then fought a PC with lvl 9-10 spells. Mirn, with a lvl 1 Mind Wal, low 20 cun and stamina, and slightly over 1000pl resisted (not Mind Wall resisted but flat out resisted) almost all the spells. This is what I have seen with Tharkan. I'm not going, nor did I ever give, specific numbers. However I have said that a high devotion to Tharkan seems to give much more then a lvl or so in MR. Also think of this. Wokrob, without the need for any devoutness level, gives his followers a lvl of MR (it showed up on their sheets!). Wouldn't it seem logical that Tharkan, with MUCH stiffer penalties, would give MUCH higher resistance to magic at high devotion lvls? Combined with the experience I had with Mirn I'd have to say that it looks like it does. Personally I think withholding this type of information would be like hoarding information from other players in AG and won't do it unless the person who gave me the information asked I keep it a secret. Since this is what I discovered I'll tell anyone that seems interested. actual > numbers (or somehow get Hugh to talk). Your first sentence is what leads to The only time I give SPECIFIC numbers is when Hugh tells me. For example the HT stamina bonus to regen is an exact quote from a diplo from Hugh to me. I thought of the idea of having stamina affect regen using that formula, gave it to Hugh. Then a couple of turns later asked him if he had implemented the change. He said he had and used the same formula (writing the formula down on the diplo) as I had recommended. SOMETIMES you can get exact information. Most of the time it's relative. Another example is that I tracked how many times BB and Morin kicked the same type of opponent in the same location as their lvl in kick and MA increased (adventuring to the same site at the same difficulty lvl :-). Basically I wanted to see how high a character could kick to try and determine how much of a penalty wearing heavy armor has on height kicked. I could bore you with details of the analysis but people REALLY don't want to know those. The results found were disappointing. I then asked other characters with higher lvls in kick and MA how high they seemd to kick. From all this I found that the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT element in how high you can kick was high tall you were. Notice again this relative. Also this is realistic. Maybe someone with lvl 30 kick and 15 MA will be able to routinely kick someone in the head that is the same height as them but with lvl 7 kick and 4 MA the only time this happens is when they're on ground/kneeling. The reason why I did all this was because I wanted to know when I increased Morin's str. some more and he starts to wear armor would it drastically affect his ability to kick. Some people would think of this as "roll-playing". Yet how many times have people asked Hugh a question and his reply was something along the lines of "try it and see what happens". Hugh WANTS and ENCOURAGES people to find these things out. However there are so many different factors that determine what happens that some people are bound to get different results/answers from these experiments. Does't mean you should STOP telling other players the results of your experiences in AG, just make sure they know that the difference between what you saw and what Hugh told you. > >Hugh has changed MR so it's partly power lvl based. The higher the pl > >the more affect it has. Ask Steve Ferrel about this. Not sure if it > >was a proposed change or if it's been implemented. > > Since it is unknown, I have to totally disregard it as hear-say. Steve plays a dwarf (used to be several, might still be) and has put alot of thought into this. He was the one that talked to Hugh about trying to get the affects of MR be PL based and talked with me about the proposal. I thought you wanted to talk about increasing MR for dwarves. Therefore I was giving information about what others players had discussed with Hugh about this topic and one of the proposals/possible implementations from other players. I even referred you to the person who made the proposal and talked with Hugh. To then publicly say you're going to totally disregard this as hear-say seems rather rude to me. If you're not interested in what other players have said/thought about a subject in AG then please don't submit messages to this list talking abou the subject. Otherwise people might think you were interested and e-mail you back. > Really? I haven't noticed that. Oh, wait. You said "seem to". I > want facts man! This I asked Hugh directly on. There is no "seems" about this. Ask him yourself if you doubt. I could give you the "facts" that lead to the discussion with Hugh about this but you don't "seem" to acknowlege anything that you haven't directly heard from Hugh so go ahead and ask him. > other races got mag resis from scrolls as long as it didn't go past trained. Could just devote to Wokrob and get same affect. Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:21:24 -0500 Subject: GUILD-L Role playing vs. Roll Playing ***** Well I have to say that for me the most enjoyment I get from the game has to do with things like having a good adventure, improving my character, seeing a character design do good, seeing a character improve, facing new creatures/sites, etc. I play AG more for the strategy/creative aspect of it then strictly assuming a different personae. Hugh actively encourages this (How many times have you asked him a question and his reply was "Try it and find out"?). Hugh seems to want us to find things out in the game on our own and that's fine by me (and part of the thrill I find in the game). I do want to know alot of the "mechanics" of AG basically because of the strategy aspect of the game. To know how to improve the character or allow it to defeat an opponent it wasn't able to before you need to know alot about the game. Why your character lost/was killed, what would help, which skills/stats to raise, which would be better for the amount of ep you have, which works better with the character design,etc. The least enjoyment I get out of the game is when my character dies on the first encounter (or, Hugh forbid, it goes 0/7). After all I'm paying for the game and I'd like to see something interesting. :) Heck, if I wanted to play AG MOSTLY for the role-playing aspect I'd probably have become an actor. Some people might look down on this but to me it's fun discovering what new twists Hugh has put into the game, how to defeat the newest creatures, how to get my character to kick ass. :) There are probably alot of other players that feel the same way. Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: Mike Lee <mlee@discover-net.net> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GUILD-L Re:Power, ogres, etc ***** >> Mike Lee wrote: > Todd wrote: >> Yes, I always beat them, but I've seen other characters 4000+ power lose to > > How many good 4000+ pl characters routinely lose to these NPCs? >Sometimes a character has bad luck and loses to an opponent they >wouldn't normally lose to. All I am saying is that some 4000+ pl characters have lost on occassion to the Human Warrior NPC. I think what you are trying to point out is that a high level Power character won't do well. What I'm trying to say is that the Human Warrior NPC is just a 25-40% win/loss type of character created to fill out the top battle group. If the Human Warrior was given level 12 Speed it would be running around 60% but that's not what it was created for. If a player spent the time and money to run a level 12 Speed, level 10 Power character I'd be interested in the results. >> them. If the Human Warrior NPC had say Speed level 12 and 30+ dex/cun to go >> with the Power level 10 things would get scary. My point was that Power for > For the human to have lvl 12 Speed as well you're basically talking >about adding another 1000pl at least. Also a lvl 12 Speed is something >few races can attain. Assuming just a snap of the fingers for a NPC to level 12 speed, the jump to level 12 speed would add barely any power level (but for a player run character it'd take about a year in fights/adventures, so 1000pl is realistic). As I've mentioned to Hugh before, skill level doesn't add enough to power level, especially at the higher levels. I've seen level 9 init add maybe 10-20 power, level 17 vertigo add around 30-40 power. > To overcome a lvl 10 Power you'd need at LEAST a high dex/cun/Init. >Again I have to ask the question, have you ever run a character with >even a lvl 3-4 Power since the change in Power? As I've already said I ran Golden for well over a year with Power 3 + Ulrick. It's been a few years since I've tried Power, but it would be interesting now as my Speed, Init, and dex/cun have all dramtically increased. Nawwww...I think I'll just watch Lord Kleevy cast his Power/Speed and get pummeled by Skeleton Warlords. :-) >> Or Power/Speed/Ulrick/Berserk ogres. I agree they have their shortcomings >> (all characters do) but they are still a 70+% win/loss character in guild >> and very good on adventures. > > Alot of how good these characters do aren't because of their lvl in >Power (maybe 3-4 at most) but their lvl in Beserk (11+). Also when was >the last time that one of these ogre types went in the guild/tournament >and fought competent fighters around their pl who dodged/retreated and >went 70+%? Look no further than the newsletter for the 70+% win/loss ogres and there you have it. Many an ogre doing all or parts of the Power/Speed/Ulrick or Mordtch/Berserk strategy have won Singles, Mixed, and Doubles tourneys. As I already said, all characters have shortcomings and midgets who dodge are one of the banes of ogres. That is one reason why they are around 70%. >> I agree with Hugh. :) [on HTs not needing changes] > You are in the minority on this. In the last player survey characters >said they sucked, and I'd be willing to bet in this player survey >they're in the bottom two as well. I agree with Hugh that HTs are where they should be and don't need modifications. But I also agree that HTs suck and rank on the bottom of the AG races. This doesn't automatically justify a change in stat costs, skill costs, formulas to be changed, etc. Mike ***** ------------------------------ From: Mike Lee <mlee@discover-net.net> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: GUILD-L Tharkan Pools & ramblings ***** >Matt wrote: >>Tood Woods wrote: > When >Tharkan first came out, even Mike thought the bonuses were too much. I am >sure glad he didn't call Hugh about it. You didn't, did you Mike? ;) (Mike's hand is over the Hugh emergency button everytime Fenrir visits the Tharkan black ooze pool...) >> In case you didn't know HT's can get multiple levels of P/D res. by >>drinking potions of P/D resistance. Not always easy. My HT has drank >>about 12 potions and gained 2 lvls. I know others who have gotten lvl >>3-4 with the same amount though. A lvl or 2 in P/D Res. doesn't help as >>much as a potion of P/D R. > > I am very disturbed by this news. What a total disregard for the >plight of Halflings everywhere. I will have to have Mike call Hugh on this >one right away. I can't imagine Sxar being replaced as taste tester by a >smelly HT. Halflings will be able to raise P/D in the near future! I can >pester Hugh with the best of them. 8P P/D resistance for free or trainable isn't much, but I'd like to see it for halflings also. > In case no one remembers me, I run Fenrir Stonecutter and Sxar. >What? You don't remember them? Fenrir was leader of SOTBR for a long time. >He made it what it was until Golden locked him in the Temple of Tharkan in >Ciston (not much traffic over there). She was always jealous of his status >in the guild. Sxar just followed Tawny into her den of pleasure and finally >escaped and went in search of Fenrir after seeing what a mockery Golden had >made of SOTBR. They shall return to Barstow in the future... > > Someone remembers them, right? Anyone? Fenrir WHO?? Sxar WHO??? Nope, never heard of em...don't want em. :) Hmmm...Fenrir in Ciston, Sxar in Ciston, Rat Czar in Ciston...I see a connection here.... Mike ***** ------------------------------ From: cfs@bea.com (Chris Settipani) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 08:34 Subject: re: GUILD-L Role playing vs. Roll Playing ***** Form: Reply Text: (9 lines follow) In NYC, everyone is an out-of work actor. If it weren't for out-of-work actors, there would be no one to wait tables at the restaurants. So I do my acting through AG. It is why I chose AG over other games. In case anyone is actually wondering, each character of mine [except maybe Glorfindel's new outlook, which is based roughly on a Rush Limbaugh/Louis Farrakhan combination <shudder>] is probably some small aspect of me taken to absurd, comedic proportions. I like to laugh at myself. I also like to laugh at everyone else, so all, keep those emails coming. Luca is just dying to chop youse all down. Original text: (32 lines follow) >From MAIL@ih (Todd Woods) {woods@cs.uiowa.edu}, on 8/28/96 11:21 PM: ***** Well I have to say that for me the most enjoyment I get from the game has to do with things like having a good adventure, improving my character, seeing a character design do good, seeing a character improve, facing new creatures/sites, etc. I play AG more for the strategy/creative aspect of it then strictly assuming a different personae. Hugh actively encourages this (How many times have you asked him a question and his reply was "Try it and find out"?). Hugh seems to want us to find things out in the game on our own and that's fine by me (and part of the thrill I find in the game). I do want to know alot of the "mechanics" of AG basically because of the strategy aspect of the game. To know how to improve the character or allow it to defeat an opponent it wasn't able to before you need to know alot about the game. Why your characte Up