AG Digest #17 From: apeiros@teleport.com (Apeiros) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:00:00 +0000 Monday, 26 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 017 ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Hartmann <davidh@zanshin.com> Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 19:00:54 -0700 Subject: Re: GUILD-L Action pts cont ***** At 3:57 PM -0700 8/24/96, SpearBstrd@aol.com wrote: [...lots of stuff...] Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the proposed change would mean slower opponents would actually get to do something, like move forward, or swing a weapon, or cast a spell, every now and then throughout each round, instead of all bunched up at the end. Since it would be proportional, if you had three times the action points of your opponent, you'd get roughly three actions for every one of your opponent's actions. Half way through each round, you'd both have used roughly half of your action points. Doesn't sound totally unreasonable. Whom does this hurt most? Probably characters like Spear Bastard, who have been optimized around a quirk of the game system, namely, that whoever has more action points gets a string of unanswered actions at the beginning of the round. Spear Bastard might have a huge advantage in action points but otherwise he's basically helpless, right? :) He can't do damage, can't defend, etc., because he sacrificed everything to get that action point advantage. At this point you surely protest (I would!), but that seems to me to be the basis for your disapproval. As you rightly point out, this looks like an enourmous change, much larger than any I've seen in the two and a half years I've played. But we don't really know. Hugh willing, we'll get a chance to try it out, both in guild fights and adventures, and find out for ourselves what it's like. David (I run Sydney and Y.T., both of whom are built for speed...) ***** ------------------------------ From: Mike Lee <mlee@discover-net.net> Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 20:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: GUILD-L Power ***** Todd wrote: >Just got my turn. Heard a rumor that the power word Delocaro costs 20 >destiny. Anybody know what this power word does? I'm not at liberty to say (the secrecy issue again :)), but I'm sure Nigel will reply to it as he's the one who told me. He might even tell you what Frangossis does, too! :) Mike ***** ------------------------------ From: Mchael@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 12:09:24 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L Minotaurs. ***** Well, I guess I shouldn't momentarily vent a minor frustration, then not check mail for several days, First, Luca calls me a whiner. I think the difference between a whiner and someone blowing off a little steam is in what they are complaining about. I did'nt ask for any kind of increase in my ability; but just the idea of someone being able to make one call to Hugh, and screwing over an entire race seemed a little too unfair. I guess I should have known better... Hugh's been pretty fair, as far as I know. BTW Luca, no you CAN'T go to the circle and get a pendant... pendants are long gone now. The Kulose Temple will give you the weaker Bracer in any city. Also, MY "speed kills" reference must have been confused with a similar AG quote; what I meant is Speed in general (dex,cunn,CM-speed,Initiative,etc., not just CM-Speed itself). I will remember the suggestion about using a CM-speed/Stamina tandem with Minos... maybe that will help. As for H-T, I'm certainly not saying Minos are the worst... in my limited experience, I find H-T to be by far the most challenging of races. I've seen my roommate struggle with one for over a year now. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I guess what I wanted to say was that we should consider the person who plays this game for the first time. As a new player, I became somewhat disouraged at my inability to defeat anyone as a Minotaur. Sure, I started out strong... but each turn I watched myself slide to the bottom of the pack. I think it's more important for new players to know about the "weaker" races (no offense,Luca), so as not to lose people who think they're just not smart enough to decipher AG's combat system. I mean, did anyone else start this game as a minotaur? Didn't you think that yes, you would be slower and stupider than say, humans, but that you would certainly be stronger and have a MUCH better stamina (strong as an ox, healthy as a horse)? I'm glad I'm no quitter, but it took many turns and a lot of money to know my place in this world. Sure, people will say: "If you wanted to be fast, you should'nt have picked Minotaur or H-T", but he new player doesn't know this! OK, I'm finished. Please feel free to call me a spineless whiner again, Luca. It's good to see our race sticks together when the chips are down, eh? Michael (Rathison, still learning) ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 18:43:45 -0500 Subject: GUILD-L CM:Power ***** A long time ago Power was a very powerful skill. However people complained that it was too powerful (I think the complaint was it was too hard to wound characters with a decent lvl in Power). So Hugh changed it so Power slowed characters down. Ever since then almost nobody uses Power because of the dramatic slow down effect. About the only characters I know that use Power are the ones that have bonuses due to their gods and even most of then don't try to get Power to the same lvl as many of the other offensive combat magics (Speed, Daze, Blast, Vertigo). Also I don't know of many of the good fighter types that use even a mediocre lvl in Power (4+). And any fighter with a lvl 7+ Power spell that goes into the guild and fights characters around their pl usually gets their ass kicked. I think the new way of distributing actions will help Power users. However I think alot of the problem is just the drastic affect lvls in Power has on Speed. I'd like to see the slow down affect be decreased to make Power a more useable skill. Any opinions? Todd Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 19:04:59 -0500 Subject: Re: GUILD-L Minotaurs. ***** Mchael@aol.com wrote: > > ***** > > Also, MY "speed kills" reference must have been confused with a > similar AG quote; what I meant is Speed in general > (dex,cunn,CM-speed,Initiative,etc., not just CM-Speed itself). I will > remember the suggestion about using a CM-speed/Stamina tandem with Minos... > maybe that will help. I know that the new method of action distribution will help the slower/hurt the faster characters. Even so I'd be willing to bet that within a year some players will start to complain to Hugh that Init and Speed boost activity too much as characters push these skills to even higher lvls. BTW the high lvl in Speed is a VERY affective strategy even with low lvls in stamina (high teens-low 20's). The trick is not to get hit which drains alot of energy under Speed. Currently with the flurry of activity that high Speed characters get at the beginning of a round they don't get attacked much (and therefore hit). > As for H-T, I'm certainly not saying Minos are the worst... in my > limited experience, I find H-T to be by far the most challenging of races. > I've seen my roommate struggle with one for over a year now. I wouldn't wish > it on my worst enemy. I know the feeling. My second character ever (first was an elf) was a HT (started my second turn of AG). It was pretty messed up, high str/stam low dex/cun. I played him until mid 1000 then gave him up to another player who sent him to the grotto after a couple of turns. It's only in the last year or so that I decided to create another HT (high str/dex, low stam, decent cun). I think Hugh should have put that note about hard to play next to HT's description and not elves. > I guess what I wanted to say was that we should consider the person > who plays this game for the first time. As a new player, I became somewhat > disouraged at my inability to defeat anyone as a Minotaur. Sure, I started > out strong... but each turn I watched myself slide to the bottom of the pack. > I think it's more important for new players to know about the "weaker" races > (no offense,Luca), so as not to lose people who think they're just not smart > enough to decipher AG's combat system. I mean, did anyone else start this > game as a minotaur? Didn't you think that yes, you would be slower and > stupider than say, humans, but that you would certainly be stronger and have > a MUCH better stamina (strong as an ox, healthy as a horse)? I'm glad I'm no > quitter, but it took many turns and a lot of money to know my place in this > world. Sure, people will say: "If you wanted to be fast, you should'nt have > picked Minotaur or H-T", but he new player doesn't know this! > I really think that Hugh should either put out something more complete about the relative strengths/weaknesses of the different races with the rulebook or include some articles players have written about the races (say the AG FAQ or some such) to give new players some insight into the game BEFORE they create their first character. Of course I got my rulebook about 6 years ago so not sure how much it has changed since then. :) Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: SpearBstrd@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 06:01:51 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L RE: Action pts ***** I am a in the minority on this subject, but that's how changes get made isn't it? All I ask is that not only to PC's get to do this change, but monsters also use it. The problem becomes two-fold. Solo characters will now get "gang-banged" sooner than before. The heavy damaging, slow monsters (i.e., undead, oozes, Elders), now get to attack and move into range sooner than before. This change will greatly influence slow characters in the guild, but adventuring .... ? We don't stand a chance. Time to go raise SpearBastard's str and sta ... Jason Sareny ***** ------------------------------ From: David Johnson <drj1@freenet.tlh.FL.us> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 07:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: GUILD-L RE: Action pts ***** Hey everyone - cheer up! You found a chink in the AG armor before and have benefitted. Now I run Silatef (you should know her race by now) and Silent and I tell you - I am not afraid. This change to speed is how it should have worked before. Now - that lizard tail thing - I am not so sure about... If you only tailswipe when a foe is down... can I ask to only KICK them when they are down??? I can work my strategy so that either will work. You can too - I know you can. So hey - it is a hap hap happy day. If you need help - send me your stat sheet and I will suggest how you can cope. As Spear says (I think) - If you want a differentially abled character - spend the EP on what you sucketh at... Frankly, it is only your pride at maintaining or going up in power level that can stop you. I don't worry about that.... I worry about trying to be under-rated and taking care of much worse off correctly rated characters like Luca. If my power level drops 500 - that is ok by me - easier fights all around. When I want to win. I like to win on adventures and struggle in the guild.... That is the only HINT - I will give you. Good morning all - or eve. Silatef *smiles* and Silent readies his Axe. ***** David Ray Johnson ***** "Hawkwind" ***** ------------------------------ From: David Ondzes <dao@ampersand.com> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 08:39:32 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L Kulose's Temple ***** Has anyone sent a non-minotaur Kulose worshipper to Kulose's temple ? If so what benefit did you gain ? What do minotaur Kulose worshippers get ? and what do minotaur non-Kulose worshippers get ? I am thinking of sending Oscar but I do not want to get some pendant that will let me increase my stats without having saved up alot of EPs. RE: Action Points... As someone who runs a HT I am all in favor of the proposed changes to action points, it will make reading my adventure alot of enjoyable. On the other hand I will not be able to skip full pages at the start of each in order to get to the point where Oscar does something. Another point, I have heard paraphrased quotes attributed to Hugh that basically say that HTs should be the best well rounded adventurer. If the action point change does happen then this will more HTs closer to being to being the best. David ***** ------------------------------ From: cfs@bea.com (Chris Settipani) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 09:02 Subject: re: GUILD-L Minotaurs. ***** Form: Reply Text: (6 lines follow) Luca want a pendant, Luca gets a pendant. Luca knows where them faeries live; Luca knows where their parents, wives, children, sisters and lovers live. Ain't no faery gonna not give Luca what Luca wants. And then, Luca gets to returns and beat up on Goldilocks, but Luca think she gonna go run and hide behind SOTBR rather than take the beating she deserves. Somebody should buy her some pots and pans, and a cookbook. Original text: (60 lines follow) >From MAIL@ih {Mchael@aol.com}, on 8/25/96 12:09 PM: ***** Well, I guess I shouldn't momentarily vent a minor frustration, then not check mail for several days, First, Luca calls me a whiner. I think the difference between a whiner and someone blowing off a little steam is in what they are complaining about. I did'nt ask for any kind of increase in my ability; but just the idea of someone being able to make one call to Hugh, and screwing over an entire race seemed a little too unfair. I guess I should have known better... Hugh's been pretty fair, as far as I know. BTW Luca, no you CAN'T go to the circle and get a pendant... pendants are long gone now. The Kulose Temple will give you the weaker Bracer in any city. Also, MY "speed kills" reference must have been confused with a similar AG quote; what I meant is Speed in general (dex,cunn,CM-speed,Initiative,etc., not just CM-Speed itself). I will remember the suggestion about using a CM-speed/Stamina tandem with Minos... maybe that will help. As for H-T, I'm certainly not saying Minos are the worst... in my limited experience, I find H-T to be by far the most challenging of races. I've seen my roommate struggle with one for over a year now. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I guess what I wanted to say was that we should consider the person who plays this game for the first time. As a new player, I became somewhat disouraged at my inability to defeat anyone as a Minotaur. Sure, I started out strong... but each turn I watched myself slide to the bottom of the pack. I think it's more important for new players to know about the "weaker" races (no offense,Luca), so as not to lose people who think they're just not smart enough to decipher AG's combat system. I mean, did anyone else start this game as a minotaur? Didn't you think that yes, you would be slower and stupider than say, humans, but that you would certainly be stronger and have a MUCH better stamina (strong as an ox, healthy as a horse)? I'm glad I'm no quitter, but it took many turns and a lot of money to know my place in this world. Sure, people will say: "If you wanted to be fast, you should'nt have picked Minotaur or H-T", but he new player doesn't know this! OK, I'm finished. Please feel free to call me a spineless whiner again, Luca. It's good to see our race sticks together when the chips are down, eh? Michael (Rathison, still learning) ***** Use Proportional Font: true Original to: MAIL@ih {guild-l@teleport.com} Attachment Count: 0 Encatts: *beyond*|*beyond*|844|10334|841075330| //BEGIN BINARY MAIL SEGMENT: //END BINARY MAIL SEGMENT - ----Message-Boundary-0000 ***** ------------------------------ From: cfs@bea.com (Chris Settipani) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 08:55 Subject: Re: GUILD-L Power ***** Form: Reply Text: (2 lines follow) Alright Nigel, what do the 2 new power words do? Rumour has it that 'frangossis' will help against vampires. Is that true? Original text: (17 lines follow) >From MAIL@ih (Mike Lee) {mlee@discover-net.net}, on 8/24/96 8:49 PM: ***** Todd wrote: >Just got my turn. Heard a rumor that the power word Delocaro costs 20 >destiny. Anybody know what this power word does? I'm not at liberty to say (the secrecy issue again :)), but I'm sure Nigel will reply to it as he's the one who told me. He might even tell you what Frangossis does, too! :) Mike ***** Use Proportional Font: true Original to: MAIL@ih {guild-l@teleport.com} Attachment Count: 0 Encatts: *beyond*|*beyond*|688|10334|841074919| //BEGIN BINARY MAIL SEGMENT: //END BINARY MAIL SEGMENT - ----Message-Boundary-0000 ***** ------------------------------ From: cfs@bea.com (Chris Settipani) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 09:57 Subject: GUILD-L Kulose / Action Points ***** Form: Internet Memo Text: (22 lines follow) Minotaur, non-Kulose worshippers get the coveted [but not much-coveted] Minotaur Bracer, lowering str and sta costs. Save up EPs before going; if they're anything like the Minotaur Pendants, they won't last long. Personally, I preferred the Pendants, so I could slam my dex and cun; but, alas, poor Pendant, I knew thee well...or so I am told. Half-Trolls will never be the best all-around adventurer [sorry to burst your bubble]. Granted, they save a mint on healers, but goblins and humans will probably always be the best all-around adventurers. And lastly, make the action point change. I stand to gain and lose [specifically, the lightning-quick Glorfindel vs. the antagonizingly-slow Inquisitor], but I'm all for game balance and fairness to ALL players. I've dealt with this as a GM years ago [Shadowrun and V&V] because it penalizes any player who chooses to design a character who is not built around optimizing the numbers. If that means that now a character has to raise his speed to 15 to ensure some wins [as opposed to raising str and sta], oh well. Deal with it. That's better for the game because now, those EPs aren't going into a vertigo that will keep me on the ground for the whole battle without even a chance to try to get up [thank you, red-robed wizard!] And finally, when Luca finally gets to battle Golden, he may even get to do something other than defend in vain. Use Proportional Font: true ***** ------------------------------ From: Ruark RC Cleary <"CLEARY_R"@ngw.dep.state.fl.us> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 11:50:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUILD-L Flame -Reply ***** Date: 08/26/1996 11:57 am (Monday) From: Ruark RC Cleary To: DEP-TLH.VAXGATE("EPIC66:PMDF:teleport.com:/ASC:guild-l") Subject: GUILD-L Flame -Reply >>From owner-guild-l 08/24/96 SteveS >> >> Action points-..should be changed game wide including monsters. Of course. >>wait until an Elder Shaman gets to pop some of you.. solo adventurers >>getting surrounded and turned to jelly by monsters that didn't do it last Which is why it's proposed as a toggle choice, just like Pool EP. >>Blast-some of you think its a joke about making blast more powerful. NO!!! Say it isn't so! It's as serious as the Elven Pendant; both of which Mike Lee is getting for us elves. Right, Mike? ...Mike? ....hello?? >>But a FEW people have been complaining to Hugh about it. So? Let them complain. We know Hugh "listens" to complaints. >>Another example What's the other one? >>people trying to make game wide changes because they're not happy >>with certain things about a skill. "Trying" being the operative word here. >>Magic resistance- One good idea out of a bunch of sewage. Hmmmm. Now there's an objective assessment for you. >>Most of the complaints are coming from people who think that their >>character should be the best in the game. Present company excepted, of course. >>Its not that they want to improve the game, its because they want their >>character to be better than yours. Oh yeah!?! Well let me say... errr... that sounds familiar? Where did I read that before....? >>think about if its good for the game before you start rocking the boat. If >>you want it changed for the good of you, do us all a favor and don't This is what's known as a reverse argument. Don't say that you oppose something, but rather argue that the people who are for it are only proposing it for selfish gain. Yes, Hugh can affirm that I proposed AP spreading at GenCon just because I run lots of slow characters and wanted to speed them up, to the detriment of all the faster characters. <sheesh>... - -AelwonF, the Slow Elf [but Poly Voo says I'm king of the elves, so there!] ***** ------------------------------ From: Ruark RC Cleary <"CLEARY_R"@ngw.dep.state.fl.us> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 13:15:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUILD-L response -Reply ***** Date: 08/26/1996 01:22 pm (Monday) From: Ruark RC Cleary To: DEP-TLH.VAXGATE("EPIC66:PMDF:teleport.com:/ASC:guild-l") Subject: GUILD-L response -Reply >>From owner-guild-l 08/24/96 mlee >> >>a certain elf was quite vocal about blast at gencon (and it wasn't Nigel NO, it wasn't ME either! >>I'm one of the ones joking on making blast more powerful, wuh..wha..wah..What!?! You were JOKING?!? Foolin' around? Pulling my leg?? How.. how could you?!?! Does this mean you were kidding about the Elven Pendant, TOO!!??!!??!! - -AelwonF, Confused and Betrayed Elf >>Mike, pondering an AG quotes page for his homepage >>"Speed Kills and Stamina is Key" >>"Blast is one skill of many" + "Roleplaying shouldn't be roll-playing." "Anyone who takes this seriously, needs professional help." "Why don't you try it and see what happens?" (my favorite Hughism) ***** ------------------------------ From: Ruark RC Cleary <"CLEARY_R"@ngw.dep.state.fl.us> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 10:05:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUILD-L Learning to influence.. -Reply ***** Date: 08/26/1996 10:13 am (Monday) From: Ruark RC Cleary To: DEP-TLH.VAXGATE("EPIC66:PMDF:teleport.com:/ASC:guild-l") Subject: Learning to influence.. -Reply >>From owner-guild-l 08/24/96 AndyZ >> >>I think that Gordon is wrong in assuming that only Veteran Players can >>add input.. I'm sure newer players also have complaints/observations But... suggestions for changes... >>to make to Hugh, and the fact that Hugh listens shouldn't make him >>seem too easy to influence. Why, I TOO have had Hugh listen to me, on: Alchemy Skill Limiting weapon ammo pickup (max ammo #) setting Limiting treasure pickup (minimum gc value) setting Parrying bonus weapons (e.g. main gauche) Campaign Adventuring and others. Yes, Hugh listened to every suggestion. Yep. Sure did. Uh-huh..... - -Rook ***** ------------------------------ End of V1 #17 ************** ***** Up