Ag Digest #16 From: apeiros@teleport.com (Apeiros) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:00:00 +0000 Saturday, 24 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 016 ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ruark RC Cleary <"CLEARY_R"@ngw.dep.state.fl.us> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:28:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: GUILD-L Reply ***** Date: 08/23/1996 10:35 am (Friday) From: Ruark RC Cleary To: DEP-TLH.VAXGATE("EPIC66:PMDF:teleport.com:/ASC:guild-l") Subject: GUILD-L Reply >>From owner-guild-l 08/22/96 07:37pm >> >>Last night Hugh mentioned something along the lines of both parties >>would have to agree on using the ratio AP system to try it out (your >>mentioned toggle switch). I guess there is still resistance from players >>who like it the way it is and Hugh would need an even larger majority >>vote to change it. So, what you are saying is that I don't have the power of, say, a Todd Woods? :-( In any case, I would like to hear the arguments against having the change made for adventures. Are these resistent players saying they want three pages of actions before the rest of their group goes, because it's fun for them (that player, not the group)? Personally, none of my characters would remain in a group with someone like that as a member (although it is fun **once in awhile** to go out with the Sisterhood, just to see Chewi's imitation of The Flash). - -AelwonF, Acolyte of Snorri ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:55:37 -0500 Subject: GUILD-L Tharkan Pools ***** Mike Lee wrote: > > If Fenrir would get out of Tharkan's black ooze pool for a minute and send > me the log I shall post. Fenrir sure likes those 10 hour baths of violent > thoughts.... About those pools. When I was running a dwarf devouted to Tharkan I noticed some pretty nasty things (along with some good ones). Mirn gained a lvl in magic resistance but also lost 2 pts in cunning. I had him visit the pools 10 hours for about 8 turns in a row. Maybe Hugh has changed it since then but if not you probably wouldn't want to stay in the pools for 10 hours at a time. Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: Brett Mason <apeiros@teleport.com> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:23:17 -0700 Subject: GUILD-L Whoa!!! ***** Here I thought the Weapon Skill point debate generated a lot of response. That was nothing compared to the current discussion of the Paper Mayhem article. So far we've managed to crank out 3 40,000 character length volumes of guild-l-digest in the last week alone. By all means keep it up though, this is what I envisioned for the mailing list when I created it. This debate and sometimes "spirited" exchange of ideas can only help to improve the game. Keep them comming, Brett Mason (Gothmog, Goll mac Morna, Ghwerig) owner-guild-l@teleport.com Moderator guild-l (AG Mailing list) ***** ------------------------------ From: cfs@bea.com (Chris Settipani) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 11:35 Subject: re: GUILD-L Whoa!!! ***** Form: Reply Text: (8 lines follow) People are exchanging spirits? This sounds like some evil ritual, and I implore all the good and kind people of Antar, Barstow, and yes, even Ciston, to stand up against this rising tide of evil before it is too late. Remember, the only thing necessary for evil to win is for good to do nothing. Khumbly, Khitrets Original text: (23 lines follow) >From MAIL@ih (Brett Mason) {apeiros@teleport.com}, on 8/23/96 8:23 AM: ***** Here I thought the Weapon Skill point debate generated a lot of response. That was nothing compared to the current discussion of the Paper Mayhem article. So far we've managed to crank out 3 40,000 character length volumes of guild-l-digest in the last week alone. By all means keep it up though, this is what I envisioned for the mailing list when I created it. This debate and sometimes "spirited" exchange of ideas can only help to improve the game. Keep them comming, Brett Mason (Gothmog, Goll mac Morna, Ghwerig) owner-guild-l@teleport.com Moderator guild-l (AG Mailing list) ***** Use Proportional Font: true Original to: MAIL@ih {guild-l@teleport.com} Attachment Count: 0 Encatts: *beyond*|*beyond*|742|10326|840825313| //BEGIN BINARY MAIL SEGMENT: //END BINARY MAIL SEGMENT - ----Message-Boundary-0000 ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:45:18 -0500 Subject: Re: GUILD-L Reply ***** Ruark RC Cleary wrote: > > ***** > > Date: 08/23/1996 10:35 am (Friday) > So, what you are saying is that I don't have the power of, say, a Todd > Woods? :-( In any case, I would like to hear the arguments against Really the HT thing was a minor change. +1 DP regenerated/5pts of stamina starting at 15. So a HT with 30 stamina would be regenerating +4 DP/regeneration. A lvl (or 2 at most) in regen would give the same affect. Of course it's a lvl or 2 the HT doesn't need to expend ep on getting. :) > having the change made for adventures. Are these resistent players > saying they want three pages of actions before the rest of their group > goes, because it's fun for them (that player, not the group)? Personally, > none of my characters would remain in a group with someone like that > as a member (although it is fun **once in awhile** to go out with the > Sisterhood, just to see Chewi's imitation of The Flash). > One of my characters would (probably) be hurt by this change, one helped. Morin is a fast little combat elf :-). Lvl 10 Speed, 5 Init, 33+ dex/cun. He can go out solo adventuring lvl 18 and never get touched. He just runs up and hacks them apart. Because he's solo he doesn't have to worry about meeting creatures 2-3 times his pl so none of his opponents are anywhere near as fast and he never has to worry about getting double/triple teamed. With the proposed changes he would be more likely to get surrounded by opponents and they'd be more likely to get attacks. Since he doesn't wear armor and he uses Speed getting hit from the side/behind does alot of damage and causes energy lose. Morin can adventure with other similarly designed characters with no problem or with a back line spell caster. Speaking of spell casters this might hurt them as well. Many of them have attained high lvls in Speed to assure them of the first few actions in combat. Spells take alot of activity. At the higher pl lvls you're not always guaranteed of Dazing your opponent with the first spell or of keeping them dazed. A slower character would have a better chance (i.e. sooner opportunity) to recover/close with a fast mage then they currently do. Of course the mages typically destroy everything in their path anyway so it would probably help game balance if the slower characters did benefit from the change. I do think the current system isn't realistic and would probably help some character types. I think it would help HT's for one. As long as they can survive a couple of attacks they'll get an opportunity to regen. Frequently fighting a HT is just a matter of patience/speed. You have to do enough damage in a short amount of time to drop them. With the current system and the way HT's are setup the opponent can get enough attacks in at the beginning of the combat to take out the HT or at the very least do enough damage that the HT spends the rest of the fight regenerating while it gets banged upon. If the HT only has to survive 2 attacks instead of 5 before it gets an action then it's more likely the HT won't get hurt/have to regen and will spend less activity defending and more attacking. I do think the change will hurt the fast character designs and help the slow. However the current system is unrealistic and typically it's the slower designs that are losing all the fights. So I favor the change although I like the idea of being able to toggle between the current and new system (so Morin can still overwhelm opponents on adventures :-). Later, Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: Bret Chenoweth <bchenow@3rdplanet.com> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:00:32 -0700 Subject: GUILD-L owner-guild-l TESTING ***** It's just me testing a new config for majordomo, please ignore this message. DO NOT REPLY. Brett Mason owner-guild-l@teleport.com ***** ------------------------------ From: "Brett Mason" <Brett_Mason_at_STRM__Beaverton1@stream.com> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 09:12:20 EST Subject: [none] ***** From: owner-guild-l@teleport.com (in disguise) Again I am just testing some new configurations for majordomo. Thx for your patience. BrettM owner-guild-l@teleport.com ***** ------------------------------ From: dconklin@netcom.com (douglas d) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 13:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GUILD-L Action Points. ***** As usual, I've sat back and watched this debate run for a while so I could get a good feel for all of the angles before opening my mouth. I hate the taste of rubber. So, here's my small input into this matter. Firstly, we all know that AG is not a very balanced game in regards to skills and races. No matter how much Hugh and everyone else wants it to be balanced, it will be forever and a day before it actually is balanced. This is a sacrifice we have to make, because the nature of the vast differencesbetween all of the possible approaches to the game, and the minor decisions as well, are what draw us to this game and keep us here (well, one day when I have time and money to rejoin anyway :-)) That said, of course attempting to bring the game closer to balance is one of the most important things for changes to be focused on. Now, I want to put this action point into percepective as to it's effect within the game and to players as well as characters. It is not just an issue for the high pl fossils. Many ages ago, thre was a group called the Church. It was formed by myself and several friends, and we were all very new to the game. We were so new infact, that for a while our most impressive, devestating member was a Minotaur (Dark Min). Now the point of the story. When we all started to approach 1000 pl, which is not very high at all by today's standards, the other members started to get frustrated. They got frustrated because Vartlokkur, an elf who concentrated on cunning and blast, and only had level 3 or 4 speed, was starting to get lots of actions while they all stood around and watched. This, combined with the level 5 weapon hump and being beaten to the Sun stone after working for months to get it, was a major cause of the break up of the Church (I thought one of the more interesting groups in the game) and the defecture of several very nice players from the game. The weapon hump has already been discussed. The Sun Stone was our own fault for making the assumption that we couldn't get to it at a 1 difficulty. The affects on vets vs new characters debate has been done to death. Now lets deal with the action points. Let's fix the game. As a (former and future) moderately fast character who won many many fights by blasting his opponent into the third row before the poor sap could get into medium range, I am completely in favor of a distributing action points as has been described. This is much more reasonable and much more realistic I think than having one character act until the action points are even, then the act evenly (the faster character slows down?) No one please get all bezerk about the word realistic, the reasonable part is more immportant. Most of us have probably seen the movie Hawk the Slayer. Come one guys. That elf was just plain silly. If we want people doing impressions of the Flash, lets have hugh start a super heroes game. Lets keep AG a game of gladiatorial combat and bloody dungeon crawling. easy, douglas d - -- ______________________________________________________________ Douglas D. Conklin | dconklin@netcom.com "Tiger, tiger burning bright ..." | douglasd@sfsu.edu - -------------------------------------------------------------- ***** ------------------------------ From: Matt Burgess <mburgess@discover-net.net> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 17:13:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: GUILD-L Tharkan Pools ***** >Mike Lee wrote: > >> >> If Fenrir would get out of Tharkan's black ooze pool for a minute and send >> me the log I shall post. Fenrir sure likes those 10 hour baths of violent >> thoughts.... > > About those pools. When I was running a dwarf devouted to Tharkan I >noticed some pretty nasty things (along with some good ones). Mirn >gained a lvl in magic resistance but also lost 2 pts in cunning. I had >him visit the pools 10 hours for about 8 turns in a row. Maybe Hugh has >changed it since then but if not you probably wouldn't want to stay in >the pools for 10 hours at a time. > > > Todd I stopped doing 10hrs with Fenrir since it seemed to be a better chance of something bad than good. I did do it this last turn and he lost 4 damage points. Of course, I had also gone for 7hrs and he lost a point of Cunning (an overall bad turn). Fenrir has lost a level of Mag resis, 2 Cunning pts, and numerous damage points from the pool. He has gained 2 Stamina (cost was the same for the Cunning lost so that evened out), and numerous damage points. On damage points, I am currently at a -6 total for visiting the pool. I still continue to visit for the possibility of gaining magic resis. Allowing Dwarves to raise it would make me think twice about visiting the pool. H-T's can raise Regen and this is what makes that race "special". Mag Resis is the same for Dwarves, yet they cannot raise it. Why have the higher stat costs and very high price for magic because they have mag resis but can't raise it? If they could raise it, they would help on party adventures when you do encounter anti-magic rooms. Most Dwarves don't use magic and would be an asset in those situations. You could also throw them up front and have them absorb any magic thrown at them. The whole point of different races was to have each one have a specialty, thus the importance of a rounded party. This also brings me to Halflings. Why can't they raise poison/disease resis? If they could, they would be valuable as "taste testers" for those adventures. I DON'T think that if another race gets these skills through magic that they should be allowed to raise them. That just takes away from the race that was considered "special" because of it. It has been a year, so I am a bit foggy on all the races, but are there any others that have a "special" skill that cannot be raised? What about thick head? Should there be a way to raise that? Matt ***** ------------------------------ From: Alrek@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 01:41:10 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L Learning to influence, by Todd Woods... ***** I think that Gordon is wrong in assuming that only Veteran Players can add input to the AG game system. I'm sure newer players also have complaints/observations to make to Hugh, and the fact that Hugh listens shouldn't make him seem too easy to influence. Todd, your check's in the mail... Andy Z. ***** ------------------------------ From: STRYFE618@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 10:53:40 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L response ***** Well I spent the time reading all my mail that piled up over the last few days, and was amazed by the volume of it. Heres my take on it. Action points- If its changed, it should be changed game wide including monsters. I can't wait until an Elder Shaman gets to pop some of you more than it ever could before. And the solo adventurers getting surrounded and turned to jelly by monsters that didn't do it last turn. Whats that, you don't want it to affect monsters? Too bad. If you want a game wide change make it game wide. If you want more actions for your slow characters, expect the same thing for the slow monsters. Blast- Now some of you think its a joke about making blast more powerful. But a FEW people have been complaining to Hugh about it. Another example of people trying to make game wide changes because they're not happy with certain things about a skill. Magic resistance- One good idea out of a bunch of sewage. The raising of it should be restricted to only dwarves, (being the only race naturally resistant to it) and should make it harder to cast or be the recipient of magic that is helpful. If there is negative as well as positive in this the player decides when enough is enough. And no, I don't run a dwarf. And don't complain when a fell dwarf general laughs at your spells. Most of the complaints are coming from people who think that their character should be the best in the game. Its not that they want to improve the game, its because they want their character to be better than yours. "Hugh, my Blast isn't killing things like I want it to." Boo-hoo. Blast is one skill of many. Its there to help, not to be an end all to everything. Its not supposed to go through plate like it does through leather armor. I guess what it boils down to is if you want a game change think about if its good for the game before you start rocking the boat. If you want it changed for the good of you, do us all a favor and don't bother us with it. Steve Sareny ***** ------------------------------ From: Mike Lee <mlee@discover-net.net> Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 14:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: GUILD-L response ***** Steve Sareny wrote: > Blast- > Now some of you think its a joke about making blast more powerful. But a FEW >people have been complaining to Hugh about it. Another example of people >trying to make game wide changes because they're not happy with certain >things about a skill. You wouldn't by any chance want to name any names? ;) I heard a certain elf was quite vocal about blast at gencon (and it wasn't Nigel :)). I'm one of the ones joking on making blast more powerful, but I agree that blast shouldn't be improved at all. Level 15+ blast wins enough fights as it is and it's a skill that goes up for free. I've been on the receiving end of Nigel's level 17 blast for quite a while now and it definitely is powerful enough as is. > Magic resistance- > One good idea out of a bunch of sewage. The raising of it should be >restricted to only dwarves, (being the only race naturally resistant to it) >and should make it harder to cast or be the recipient of magic that is >helpful. Glad to hear you like the idea. Overall I think a large majority of players like the idea if the cost to raise is high enough. > If there is negative as well as positive in this the player decides when >enough is enough. And no, I don't run a dwarf. And don't complain when a fell >dwarf general laughs at your spells. Um...like Felldwarf Generals don't already laugh at level 17+ spells? :) > "Hugh, my Blast isn't killing things like I want it to." Boo-hoo. Blast is >one skill of many. Its there to help, not to be an end all to everything. Its >not supposed to go through plate like it does through leather armor. Hey, that's funny, Hugh said something similar to the above ages ago. :) Mike, pondering an AG quotes page for his homepage "Speed Kills and Stamina is Key" "Blast is one skill of many" ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:27:10 -0500 Subject: GUILD-L Power ***** Just got my turn. Heard a rumor that the power word Delocaro costs 20 destiny. Anybody know what this power word does? Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: SpearBstrd@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 18:57:19 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L Action Pts ***** Greetings. I have listened for awhile now, and have tried to understand what the argument for the change in action pts is. From my understanding, players want a change in action pts because of; unfairness (slow characters being left behind), unrealistic (faster characters just too fast), and unbalanced (faster characters are better). This is what I'm hearing. If there are other reasons, please explain so I can get a better grip of the situation. Now without further ado, here's Bastard! Thank, you. Thank you. The first thing I hafta say is, why you whinning, little, sniveling, cheezcakes! Why, oh, why do you want to hurt the Bastard. Am I not beautiful? Am I not there to help when asked? How can you all tear me apart like this without asking, "Hey, how does Spear think of this change?" Like you didn't know. The action pt debate isn't just a change to a skill, it's a change to the whole aspect of the game itself. A change here will effect the way a character is made and played from here on out. I bring this up cause I was created to be FAST! When started, my dex was 7 pts higher then any other stat. What's going to happen if an action pt change happens, and slower characters get to act before I can do any damage? I lose out, on years of growth. But enough about me, let's try to break this down. UNFAIRNESS: Let's talk unfair. Slow characters are slow because they either; (1) picked a slower racial group. i.e. 1/2 troll, ogre, or (2) choose to develope a strong high stamina character. i.e. the damage sponge or tank. They have sunk their EP's into the characteristics to become this way, taking years into this development. Fast characters have sunk their EP's into those stats which can make them fast, forgoing str and sta. This seems pretty fair so far. Now, because slow characters are slow, you all want to become up to speed with the Fast characters, but without the hassle of actually spending your EP's into the stats and skills needed to become fast. A change is being made optional, and we will see how it works. BUT. When all you slower characters finally get action pts and swing sooner then you swung before and start to gain the upper hand in AG, when does it end? Should I start to complain that I'm not strong or able to take damage so instead of spending my EP's into those stats and skills neccessary to raise them, ask the Lord God Hugh to make a change? UNFAIR to be cont ***** ------------------------------ From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:25:35 -0500 Subject: Re: GUILD-L response ***** Mike Lee wrote: > > Mike, pondering an AG quotes page for his homepage > "Speed Kills and Stamina is Key" > "Blast is one skill of many" > > ***** Here's another quote. "HT's suck." ;-) Todd ***** ------------------------------ From: SpearBstrd@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 18:57:54 -0400 Subject: GUILD-L Action pts cont ***** UNREALISTIC: Sometimes on adventures, I can get a half page of just me doing batlle. Fun reading? It depends. See, I DON'T DO DAMAGE! It's that simple. It takes me 20 hits to take down a monster that it takes slow characters at my PL 10 or fewer Hits to take down.What's so unrealistic about that? I'm fast. I know I'm fast. Hell, everyone knows I'm fast. If you adventure with me, you also know that I have Hurl Weapon lvl 10 to make up for being so fast, as not to take away from anyone elses adventure. The reason for action pt change as being unrealistic is speculative and an opinion and therefor not a true reason to make a total change to AG. (of course that's my opinion) Finally, UNBALANCED: WHAT? Who started this arguement? UNBALANCED? What fast character below my PL is so damn good, just because he/she is fast? Make sure it's not just a damn good strategy before naming examples. i.e. Varthlokker with a high lvl Blast (no one will survive that at his PL and any elf coulda had it). I think of myself as a fast character (also beautiful but we're not talking about that). My guild record is a measly 56%. Am I not seeing something here? I heard people say that fast characters are better. Hello? Hugh? Why ain't I better? All I have is action pts and that's why I don't do better. So changing the action pts for slow characters is going to be beneficial to slow characters, but I still don't see a valid argument for that side other than "we want action pts, because we BELIEVE it's unfair". Get a grip people. I've got action pts up the ass, and I'm mediocre. You'll do more harm than good. What happens to the gobo's and halflings now that they can't attack 12 times in a row with a short sword to a halftroll able to take that measly damage? Well the halftroll now gets to swing after the third attack and sets the little bugger to the res table after one shot. Exaggeration? Nope. It's going to happen, and continue to happen. Watch and learn with me. In going, remember, sure I am concerned with my own skin, but think about the little fellows and for gods sake, IF YOURE TOO SLOW SPEND, THE FREAKIN EPS TO MAKE YOURSELF FASTER! Stop complaining that its an 8 modifier to raise dex, its an 8 modifier to raise str and sta for elves, so why shouldn't they complain? What? They're elves and they are supposed to be weak? Hell, you're a freakin half troll, you're supposed to be slow! It's not how you bash it but how you flash it. Bastard of the Spear ***** ------------------------------ End of V1 #16 ************** ***** Up