Ag Digest #16

From: apeiros@teleport.com (Apeiros)

Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:00:00 +0000

Saturday, 24 August 1996      Volume 01 : Number 016

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From: Ruark RC Cleary <"CLEARY_R"@ngw.dep.state.fl.us>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:28:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: GUILD-L Reply

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Date:  08/23/1996  10:35 am  (Friday)
From:  Ruark RC Cleary
To:  DEP-TLH.VAXGATE("EPIC66:PMDF:teleport.com:/ASC:guild-l")
Subject:  GUILD-L Reply

>>From owner-guild-l 08/22/96 07:37pm >>
>>Last night Hugh mentioned something along the lines of both parties
>>would have to agree on using the ratio AP system to try it out (your
>>mentioned toggle switch).  I guess there is still resistance from players
>>who like it the way it is and Hugh would need an even larger majority
>>vote to change it.

So, what you are saying is that I don't have the power of, say, a Todd
Woods?  :-(   In any case, I would like to hear the arguments against
having the change made for adventures.  Are these resistent players
saying they want three pages of actions before the rest of their group
goes, because it's fun for them (that player, not the group)?  Personally,
none of my characters would remain in a group with someone like that
as a member (although it is fun **once in awhile** to go out with the
Sisterhood, just to see Chewi's imitation of The Flash).

- -AelwonF, Acolyte of Snorri

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From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:55:37 -0500
Subject: GUILD-L Tharkan Pools

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Mike Lee wrote:

>
> If Fenrir would get out of Tharkan's black ooze pool for a minute and send
> me the log I shall post.  Fenrir sure likes those 10 hour baths of violent
> thoughts....

About those pools.  When I was running a dwarf devouted to Tharkan I
noticed some pretty nasty things (along with some good ones).  Mirn
gained a lvl in magic resistance but also lost 2 pts in cunning.  I had
him visit the pools 10 hours for about 8 turns in a row.  Maybe Hugh has
changed it since then but if not you probably wouldn't want to stay in
the pools for 10 hours at a time.

Todd
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From: Brett Mason <apeiros@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:23:17 -0700
Subject: GUILD-L Whoa!!!

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Here I thought the Weapon Skill point debate generated a lot of
response.  That was nothing compared to the current discussion of the
Paper Mayhem article.  So far we've managed to  crank out 3 40,000
character length volumes of guild-l-digest in the last week alone.

By all means keep it up though, this is what I envisioned for the
mailing list when I created it.

This debate and sometimes "spirited" exchange of ideas can only help to
improve the game.

Keep them comming,

Brett Mason (Gothmog, Goll mac Morna, Ghwerig)
owner-guild-l@teleport.com
Moderator guild-l (AG Mailing list)
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From: cfs@bea.com (Chris Settipani)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 11:35
Subject: re: GUILD-L Whoa!!!

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Form: Reply
Text: (8 lines follow)
People are exchanging spirits?  This sounds like some evil ritual, and I
implore all the good and kind people of Antar, Barstow, and yes, even
Ciston, to stand up against this rising tide of evil before it is too
late.  Remember, the only thing necessary for evil to win is for good to
do nothing.

Khumbly,
Khitrets
Original text: (23 lines follow)
>From MAIL@ih (Brett Mason) {apeiros@teleport.com}, on 8/23/96 8:23 AM:

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By all means keep it up though, this is what I envisioned for the
mailing list when I created it.

This debate and sometimes "spirited" exchange of ideas can only help to
improve the game.

Keep them comming,

Brett Mason (Gothmog, Goll mac Morna, Ghwerig)
owner-guild-l@teleport.com
Moderator guild-l (AG Mailing list)
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From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:45:18 -0500
Subject: Re: GUILD-L Reply

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Ruark RC Cleary wrote:
>
> *****
>
> Date:  08/23/1996  10:35 am  (Friday)

> So, what you are saying is that I don't have the power of, say, a Todd
> Woods?  :-(   In any case, I would like to hear the arguments against

Really the HT thing was a minor change.  +1 DP regenerated/5pts of
stamina starting at 15.  So a HT with 30 stamina would be regenerating
+4 DP/regeneration.  A lvl (or 2 at most) in regen would give the same
affect.  Of course it's a lvl or 2 the HT doesn't need to expend ep on
getting. :)

> having the change made for adventures.  Are these resistent players
> saying they want three pages of actions before the rest of their group
> goes, because it's fun for them (that player, not the group)?  Personally,
> none of my characters would remain in a group with someone like that
> as a member (although it is fun **once in awhile** to go out with the
> Sisterhood, just to see Chewi's imitation of The Flash).
>

One of my characters would (probably) be hurt by this change, one
helped.   Morin is a fast little combat elf :-).  Lvl 10 Speed, 5 Init,
33+ dex/cun.  He can go out solo adventuring lvl 18 and never get
touched.  He just runs up and hacks them apart.  Because he's solo he
doesn't have to worry about meeting creatures 2-3 times his pl so none
of his opponents are anywhere near as fast and he never has to worry
about getting double/triple teamed.  With the proposed changes he would
be more likely to get surrounded by opponents and they'd be more likely
to get attacks.  Since he doesn't wear armor and he uses Speed getting
hit from the side/behind does alot of damage and causes energy lose.
Morin can adventure with other similarly designed characters with no
problem or with a back line spell caster.
	Speaking of spell casters this might hurt them as well.  Many of them
have attained high lvls in Speed to assure them of the first few actions
in combat.  Spells take alot of activity.  At the higher pl lvls you're
not always guaranteed of Dazing your opponent with the first spell or of
keeping them dazed.  A slower character would have a better chance (i.e.
sooner opportunity) to recover/close with a fast mage then they
currently do.  Of course the mages typically destroy everything in their
path anyway so it would probably help game balance if the slower
characters did benefit from the change.
	I do think the current system isn't realistic and would probably help
some character types.  I think it would help HT's for one.  As long as
they can survive a couple of attacks they'll get an opportunity to
regen.  Frequently fighting a HT is just a matter of patience/speed.
You have to do enough damage in a short amount of time to drop them.
With the current system and the way HT's are setup the opponent can get
enough attacks in at the beginning of the combat to take out the HT or
at the very least do enough damage that the HT spends the rest of the
fight regenerating while it gets banged upon.  If the HT only has to
survive 2 attacks instead of 5 before it gets an action then it's more
likely the HT won't get hurt/have to regen and will spend less activity
defending and more attacking.
	I do think the change will hurt the fast character designs and help
the
slow.  However the current system is unrealistic and typically it's the
slower designs that are losing all the fights.  So I favor the change
although I like the idea of being able to toggle between the current and
new system (so Morin can still overwhelm opponents on adventures :-).

Later,
		Todd
*****

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From: Bret Chenoweth <bchenow@3rdplanet.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:00:32 -0700
Subject: GUILD-L owner-guild-l TESTING

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It's just me testing a new config for majordomo, please ignore this
message.

DO NOT REPLY.

Brett Mason
owner-guild-l@teleport.com
*****

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From: "Brett Mason" <Brett_Mason_at_STRM__Beaverton1@stream.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 96 09:12:20 EST
Subject: [none]

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From: owner-guild-l@teleport.com (in disguise)

Again I am just testing some new configurations for majordomo.

Thx for your patience.

BrettM
     owner-guild-l@teleport.com

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From: dconklin@netcom.com (douglas d)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 13:22:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: GUILD-L Action Points.

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As usual, I've sat back and watched this debate run for a while so I
could get a good feel for all of the angles before opening my mouth. I
hate the taste of rubber.

So, here's my small input into this matter.

Firstly, we all know that AG is not a very balanced game in regards to
skills and races. No matter how much Hugh and everyone else wants it to
be balanced, it will be forever and a day before it actually is balanced.
This is a sacrifice we have to make, because the nature of the vast
differencesbetween all of the possible approaches to the game, and the
minor decisions as well, are what draw us to this game and keep us here
(well, one day when I have time and money to rejoin anyway :-))

That said, of course attempting to bring the game closer to balance is
one of the most important things for changes to be focused on.

Now, I want to put this action point into percepective as to it's effect
within the game and to players as well as characters. It is not just an
issue for the high pl fossils. Many ages ago, thre was a group called the
Church. It was formed by myself and several friends, and we were all very
new to the game. We were so new infact, that for a while our most
impressive, devestating member was a Minotaur (Dark Min).

Now the point of the story. When we all started to approach 1000 pl,
which is not very high at all by today's standards, the other members
started to get frustrated. They got frustrated because Vartlokkur, an elf
who concentrated on cunning and blast, and only had level 3 or 4 speed,
was starting to get lots of actions while they all stood around and
watched. This, combined with the level 5 weapon hump and being beaten to
the Sun stone after working for months to get it, was a major cause of
the break up of the Church (I thought one of the more interesting groups
in the game) and the defecture of several very nice players from the
game.

The weapon hump has already been discussed. The Sun Stone was our own
fault for making the assumption that we couldn't get to it at a 1
difficulty. The affects on vets vs new characters debate has been done to
death. Now lets deal with the action points. Let's fix the game.

As a (former and future) moderately fast character who won many many
fights by blasting his opponent into the third row before the poor sap
could get into medium range, I am completely in favor of a distributing
action points as has been described. This is much more reasonable and
much more realistic I think than having one character act until the
action points are even, then the act evenly (the faster character slows
down?) No one please get all bezerk about the word realistic, the
reasonable part is more immportant.

Most of us have probably seen the movie Hawk the Slayer. Come one guys.
That elf was just plain silly. If we want people doing impressions of the
Flash, lets have hugh start a super heroes game. Lets keep AG a game of
gladiatorial combat and bloody dungeon crawling.

easy,
	douglas d

- --
______________________________________________________________
Douglas D. Conklin                | dconklin@netcom.com
"Tiger, tiger burning bright ..." | douglasd@sfsu.edu
- --------------------------------------------------------------

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From: Matt Burgess <mburgess@discover-net.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 17:13:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: GUILD-L Tharkan Pools

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>Mike Lee wrote:
>
>>
>> If Fenrir would get out of Tharkan's black ooze pool for a minute and send
>> me the log I shall post.  Fenrir sure likes those 10 hour baths of violent
>> thoughts....
>
>	About those pools.  When I was running a dwarf devouted to Tharkan I
>noticed some pretty nasty things (along with some good ones).  Mirn
>gained a lvl in magic resistance but also lost 2 pts in cunning.  I had
>him visit the pools 10 hours for about 8 turns in a row.  Maybe Hugh has
>changed it since then but if not you probably wouldn't want to stay in
>the pools for 10 hours at a time.
>
>
>	Todd

I stopped doing 10hrs with Fenrir since it seemed to be a better
chance of something bad than good.  I did do it this last turn and he lost 4
damage points.  Of course, I had also gone for 7hrs and he lost a point of
Cunning (an overall bad turn).  Fenrir has lost a level of Mag resis, 2
Cunning pts, and numerous damage points from the pool.  He has gained 2
Stamina (cost was the same for the Cunning lost so that evened out), and
numerous damage points.  On damage points, I am currently at a -6 total for
visiting the pool.  I still continue to visit for the possibility of gaining
magic resis.  Allowing Dwarves to raise it would make me think twice about
visiting the pool.

H-T's can raise Regen and this is what makes that race "special".
Mag Resis is the same for Dwarves, yet they cannot raise it.  Why have the
higher stat costs and very high price for magic because they have mag resis
but can't raise it?  If they could raise it, they would help on party
adventures when you do encounter anti-magic rooms.  Most Dwarves don't use
magic and would be an asset in those situations.  You could also throw them
up front and have them absorb any magic thrown at them.  The whole point of
different races was to have each one have a specialty, thus the importance
of a rounded party.  This also brings me to Halflings.  Why can't they raise
poison/disease resis?  If they could, they would be valuable as "taste
testers" for those adventures.  I DON'T think that if another race gets
these skills through magic that they should be allowed to raise them.  That
just takes away from the race that was considered "special" because of it.

It has been a year, so I am a bit foggy on all the races, but are
there any others that have a "special" skill that cannot be raised?  What
about thick head?  Should there be a way to raise that?

Matt

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From: Alrek@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 01:41:10 -0400
Subject: GUILD-L Learning to influence, by Todd Woods...

*****

I think that Gordon is wrong in assuming that only Veteran Players can add
input to the AG game system. I'm sure newer players also have
complaints/observations to make to Hugh, and the fact that Hugh listens
shouldn't make him seem too easy to influence.

Todd, your check's in the mail...

Andy Z.
*****

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From: STRYFE618@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 10:53:40 -0400
Subject: GUILD-L response

*****

Well I spent the time reading all my mail that piled up over the last few
days, and was amazed by the volume of it. Heres my take on it.

Action points-

If its changed, it should be changed game wide including monsters. I can't
wait until an Elder Shaman gets to pop some of you more than it ever could
before. And the solo adventurers getting surrounded and turned to jelly by
monsters that didn't do it last turn.
 Whats that, you don't want it to affect monsters? Too bad. If you want a
game wide change make it game wide. If you want more actions for your slow
characters, expect the same thing for the slow monsters.

Blast-

Now some of you think its a joke about making blast more powerful. But a FEW
people have been complaining to Hugh about it. Another example of people
trying to make game wide changes because they're not happy with certain
things about a skill.

Magic resistance-

One good idea out of a bunch of sewage. The raising of it should be
restricted to only dwarves, (being the only race naturally resistant to it)
and should make it harder to cast or be the recipient of magic that is
helpful.
 If there is negative as well as positive in this the player decides when
enough is enough. And no, I don't run a dwarf. And don't complain when a fell
dwarf general laughs at your spells.

Most of the complaints are coming from people who think that their character
should be the best in the game. Its not that they want to improve the game,
its because they want their character to be better than yours.
 "Hugh, my Blast isn't killing things like I want it to." Boo-hoo.  Blast is
one skill of many. Its there to help, not to be an end all to everything. Its
not supposed to go through plate like it does through leather armor.

I guess what it boils down to is if you want a game change think about if
its good for the game before you start rocking the boat. If you want it
changed for the good of you, do us all a favor and don't bother us with it.

Steve Sareny

*****

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From: Mike Lee <mlee@discover-net.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 14:20:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: GUILD-L response

*****

Steve Sareny wrote:
> Blast-
> Now some of you think its a joke about making blast more powerful. But a FEW
>people have been complaining to Hugh about it. Another example of people
>trying to make game wide changes because they're not happy with certain
>things about a skill.

You wouldn't by any chance want to name any names? ;) I heard a certain elf
was quite vocal about blast at gencon (and it wasn't Nigel :)).  I'm one of
the ones joking on making blast more powerful, but I agree that blast
shouldn't be improved at all.  Level 15+ blast wins enough fights as it is
and it's a skill that goes up for free.  I've been on the receiving end of
Nigel's level 17 blast for quite a while now and it definitely is powerful
enough as is.

> Magic resistance-
> One good idea out of a bunch of sewage. The raising of it should be
>restricted to only dwarves, (being the only race naturally resistant to it)
>and should make it harder to cast or be the recipient of magic that is
>helpful.

Glad to hear you like the idea.  Overall I think a large majority of players
like the idea if the cost to raise is high enough.

> If there is negative as well as positive in this the player decides when
>enough is enough. And no, I don't run a dwarf. And don't complain when a fell
>dwarf general laughs at your spells.

Um...like Felldwarf Generals don't already laugh at level 17+ spells? :)

> "Hugh, my Blast isn't killing things like I want it to." Boo-hoo.  Blast is
>one skill of many. Its there to help, not to be an end all to everything. Its
>not supposed to go through plate like it does through leather armor.

Hey, that's funny, Hugh said something similar to the above ages ago. :)

Mike, pondering an AG quotes page for his homepage
"Speed Kills and Stamina is Key"
"Blast is one skill of many"

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From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:27:10 -0500
Subject: GUILD-L Power

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Just got my turn.  Heard a rumor that the power word Delocaro costs 20
destiny.  Anybody know what this power word does?

Todd
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From: SpearBstrd@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 18:57:19 -0400
Subject: GUILD-L Action Pts

*****

Greetings. I have listened for awhile now, and have tried to understand
what the argument for the change in action pts is. From my understanding,
players want a change in action pts because of; unfairness (slow characters
being left behind), unrealistic (faster characters just too fast), and
unbalanced (faster characters are better). This is what I'm hearing. If there
are other reasons, please explain so I can get a better grip of the
situation.

Now without further ado, here's Bastard!

Thank, you. Thank you. The first thing I hafta say is, why you whinning,
little, sniveling, cheezcakes! Why, oh, why do you want to hurt the Bastard.
Am I not beautiful? Am I not there to help when asked? How can you all tear
me apart like this without asking, "Hey, how does Spear think of this
change?" Like you didn't know.

The action pt debate isn't just a change to a skill, it's a change to the
whole aspect of the game itself. A change here will effect the way a
character is made and played from here on out. I bring this up cause I was
created to be FAST! When started, my dex was 7 pts higher then any other
stat. What's going to happen if an action pt change happens, and slower
characters get to act before I can do any damage? I lose out, on years of
growth. But enough about me, let's try to break this down.

UNFAIRNESS: Let's talk unfair. Slow characters are slow because they either;
(1) picked a slower racial group. i.e. 1/2 troll, ogre, or (2) choose to
develope a strong high stamina character. i.e. the damage sponge or tank.
They have sunk their EP's into the characteristics to become this way, taking
years into this development. Fast characters  have sunk their EP's into those
stats which can make them fast, forgoing str and sta. This seems pretty fair
so far. Now, because slow characters are slow, you all want to become up to
speed with the Fast characters, but without the hassle of actually spending
your EP's into the stats and skills needed to become fast.  A change is being
made optional, and we will see how it works. BUT. When all you slower
characters finally get action pts and swing sooner then you swung before and
start to gain the upper hand in AG, when does it end? Should I start to
complain that I'm not strong or able to take damage so instead of spending my
EP's into those stats and skills neccessary to raise them, ask the Lord God
Hugh to make a change? UNFAIR

to be cont
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From: Todd Woods <woods@cs.uiowa.edu>
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:25:35 -0500
Subject: Re: GUILD-L response

*****

Mike Lee wrote:

>
> Mike, pondering an AG quotes page for his homepage
> "Speed Kills and Stamina is Key"
> "Blast is one skill of many"
>
> *****

Here's another quote.

"HT's suck."  ;-)

Todd
*****

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From: SpearBstrd@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 18:57:54 -0400
Subject: GUILD-L Action pts cont

*****

UNREALISTIC: Sometimes on adventures, I can get a half page of just me doing
batlle. Fun reading? It depends. See, I DON'T DO DAMAGE! It's that simple. It
takes me 20 hits to take down a monster that it takes slow characters at my
PL 10 or fewer Hits to take down.What's so unrealistic about that? I'm fast.
I know I'm fast. Hell, everyone knows I'm fast. If you adventure with me, you
also know that I have Hurl Weapon lvl 10 to make up for being so fast, as not
to take away from anyone elses adventure. The reason for action pt change as
being unrealistic is speculative and an opinion and therefor not a  true
reason to make a total change to AG. (of course that's my opinion)

Finally, UNBALANCED: WHAT? Who started this arguement? UNBALANCED? What fast
character below my PL is so damn good, just because he/she is fast? Make sure
it's not just a damn good strategy before naming examples. i.e. Varthlokker
with a high lvl Blast (no one will survive that at his PL and any elf coulda
had it). I think of myself as a fast character (also beautiful but we're not
talking about that). My guild record is a measly 56%. Am I not seeing
something here? I heard people say that fast characters are better. Hello?
Hugh? Why ain't I better? All I have is action pts and that's why I don't do
better. So changing the action pts for slow characters is going to be
beneficial to slow characters, but I still don't see a valid argument for
that side other than "we want action pts, because we BELIEVE it's unfair".
Get a grip people. I've got action pts up the ass, and I'm mediocre. You'll
do more harm than good. What happens to the gobo's and halflings now that
they can't attack 12 times in a row with a short sword to a halftroll able to
take that measly damage? Well the halftroll now gets to swing after the third
attack and sets the little bugger to the res table after one shot.
Exaggeration? Nope. It's going to happen, and continue to happen. Watch and
learn with me.

In going, remember, sure I am concerned with my own skin, but think about the
little fellows and for gods sake, IF YOURE TOO SLOW SPEND, THE FREAKIN EPS TO
MAKE YOURSELF FASTER! Stop complaining that its an 8 modifier to raise dex,
its an 8 modifier to raise str and sta for elves, so why shouldn't they
complain? What? They're elves and they are supposed to be weak? Hell, you're
a freakin half troll, you're supposed to be slow!

It's not how you bash it but how you flash it.

Bastard of the Spear
*****

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End of  V1 #16
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